George W. Bush famously stated this claim about Middle Easterners.
From Ian Welsh’s blog (Nov 6, 2023, Enough! (Palestine))
• • • • • •
- Let’s lay this out.
Israel is genociding Palestinians in Gaza. It has killed more civilians in three weeks than Ukraine and Russia have all war. Over 60% of casualties are children and women. They are deliberately flattening as many residential buildings as possible. They have bombed multiple hospitals, every single university and just hit the remaining water facility, while Palestinians have almost no water to drink.
Their end-goal is to force whoever survives into Egypt.
The US, may their empire collapse now, is sheep-dogging the Israeli genocide.
Senior U.S. Officials have reportedly been Warning the Iranian Government and Iranian-Backed Militias in the Middle East such as Hezbollah for several weeks now, both Directly and through Back-Channels in Countries like Turkey, that if they decide to launch a Significant or… pic.twitter.com/TizdWsk9kn
— OSINTdefender (@sentdefender) November 6, 2023
Let me translate this.
America: “If Iran or Hezbollah try to stop the Israeli genocide of Palestinians, we will fuck up Iran and Lebanon to make sure Israel can keep mass-murdering civilians.”
• • • • • •
Okay, repeat after me: “They hate us for our freedom! They hate us. . . .”
There is no other reason, right? Right?
Uncommon Sense 
Old-time religion (and I’m not referencing modern-day terminology) is at the core of these “war-like” activities. The only desired “freedom” harks back to (supposed) promises made by a non-existent god.
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Comment by Nan — November 6, 2023 @ 12:30 pm |
This religious core is certainly true of Hamas specifically and widely shared by Palestinian civilians. It’s the same existential threat Israel has to face every day but one the West seems incapable of recognizing. Harris and other New Atheists have been banging the warning gong on this for quite some time. From Coyne:
The core religious belief is “what explains the suicidal and genocidal inclinations of a group like Hamas. The Islamic doctrines of martyrdom and jihad do.
These are religious beliefs, sincerely held. They are beliefs about the moral structure of the universe. And they explain how normal people—even good ones—can commit horrific acts of violence against innocent civilians—on purpose, not as collateral damage—and still consider themselves good. When you believe that life in this world has no value, apart from deciding who goes to hell and who goes to Paradise, it becomes possible to feel perfectly at ease killing noncombatants, or even using your own women and children as human shields, because you know that any Muslims who get killed will go to Paradise for eternity.
If you don’t understand that jihadists sincerely believe these things, you don’t understand the problem Israel faces. The problem isn’t merely Palestinian nationalism, or resource competition, or any other normal terrestrial grievance. In fact, the problem isn’t even hatred, though there is enough of that to go around. The problem is religious certainty.”
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Comment by tildeb — November 14, 2023 @ 10:42 am |
And this goes back to claim of equivalency. As Harris points out, “Yes, there are (religious ) lunatics on both sides, but the consequences of their lunacy are not equivalent—not even remotely equivalent. We haven’t spent the last 20 years taking our shoes off at the airport because there are so many fanatical Jews eager to blow themselves up on airplanes.”
Harris’ point is that we all live in Israel now. It’s just a lot of Westerners don’t realize it.
“Of course, the boundary between Anti-Semitism and generic moral stupidity is a little hard to discern—and I’m not sure that it is always important to find it. I’m not sure it matters why a person can’t distinguish between collateral damage in a necessary war and conscious acts of genocidal sadism that are celebrated as a religious sacrament by a death cult. Our streets have been filled with people, literally tripping over themselves in their eagerness to demonstrate that they cannot distinguish between those who intentionally kill babies, and those who inadvertently kill them, having taken great pains to avoid killing them, while defending themselves against the very people who have just intentionally tortured and killed innocent men, women, and yes… babies. And who are committed to doing this again at any opportunity, and who are using their own innocent noncombatants as human shields. If you’re both sides-ing this situation—or worse, if you are supporting the wrong side: if you are waving the flag of people who murder noncombatants intentionally, killing parents in front of their children and children in front of their parents, burning people alive at a music festival devoted to “peace”, and decapitating others, and dragging their dismembered bodies through the streets, all to shouts of “God is Great.” If you are recognizing the humanity of actual barbarians, while demonizing the people who actually worry about war crimes and who drop leaflets and call cell phones for days, in an effort to get noncombatants to leave specific buildings before they are bombed, because those buildings sit on top of tunnels filled with genocidal lunatics—who again, have just sedulously tortured and murdered families as though it were a religious sacrament, because for them it is a religious sacrament. If you have landed, proudly and sanctimoniously, on the wrong side of this asymmetry—this vast gulf between savagery and civilization—while marching through the quad of an Ivy League institution wearing yoga pants, I’m not sure it matters that your moral confusion is due to the fact that you just happen to hate Jews. Whether you’re an anti-Semite or just an apologist for atrocity is probably immaterial. The crucial point is that you are dangerously confused about the moral norms and political sympathies that make life in this world worth living.
Yup, we all live in Israel now. It’s time to wake up and call out the both-sides-ism as serving only the jihadists.
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Comment by tildeb — November 14, 2023 @ 10:52 am |
I don’t entirely agree. “God” favored the Israelites. He gave land and blessings to them. The fact that the Palestinians don’t like the idea is, IMO, at the core of not only this action but underlies all the tension between the two.
Look, I’m not looking to “take sides” in the current battle. I’m just pointing out WHY there has been and probably always will be tension between these two entities. Many will try to attribute it to modern day decisions and events, but at its core, IMO, it’s as old as the bible.
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Comment by Nan — November 14, 2023 @ 11:05 am |
This position seems reasonable, Nan. But is it true? Well, kind of. I see two issues here.
I can’t think of an orthodox religion that doesn’t claim its believers are special. But very often such beliefs in other orthodoxies do not produce the kind of results in the situation we see today in Israel. So something else, something more, or at least in addition to, must be tilting the barbaric consequences we find constantly set to ‘Repeat’ today in Israel. Belief in jihad I think plays a central role and this is not a widely shared view in other religions.
The other issue has to do with tolerance and rights – including religious rights – in Israel for its non Jewish Arab populations. If religious intolerance were central to the Jewish side of this conflict in order to make an equivalency claim have much merit, I can’t see how this fact doesn’t bring it into question.
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Comment by tildeb — November 14, 2023 @ 11:16 am |
Infidel753 was a big promoter and supporter of my blog until I mentioned the fact that Israel is not an innocent party in this fight. He got pretty bent, and I haven’t had a single roundup appearance since.
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Comment by thespartanatheist — November 6, 2023 @ 5:53 pm |
Well, the “war” is tribal.
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Comment by Steve Ruis — November 6, 2023 @ 9:45 pm |
Infidel753 has written what I think is probably the most important decision any of us can make today:
“For decades, many Americans have looked back at the rise of the Nazi movement in Germany and wondered, “could it happen here?”. Well, now we know. On October 7 we saw the worst mass murder of Jews since 1945, perhaps the most sadistic war crime ever committed — and since then, American streets have been filled with actual literal Nazi rallies, glorifying the murderers and waving Palestinian flags, while Jews and Jewish institutions are being menaced and attacked all over our country. “Could it happen here” is no longer the question. It is happening here, right now. For those who said they would speak out and oppose it if it happened here, now is the time. Put up or shut up.”
The same menace has arisen all over the West. Now is the time for each of us to decide.
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Comment by tildeb — November 13, 2023 @ 11:54 am |
Tildeb, don’t misunderstand me. That mass murder was a horrible thing and deserved condemnation.
As does the Israeli response of murdering children.
They both deserve condemnation. And you can’t say Palestine struck first. This is a problem that was created by politicians carving up land with no considerations of people and cultures. And further encroachment and illegal seizure of land, I might add. When you poke the bear, sometimes you get bit. And no amount of pearl clutching will change the fact that the Israeli encroachment was illegal, immoral, and based on bullshit.
I’m not on either side. It’s way to complicated an issue to “pick a side”, because neither side has the moral or legal high ground.
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Comment by thespartanatheist — November 13, 2023 @ 12:24 pm |
And there’s the false equivalency in action. This is a faith-based belief that is founded on a very particular ideological narrative that is not true in reality (why do you think the religion is called ‘Judaism’ if Jews have no historical and indigenous connection to Judea?) but fits into the whole woke ‘colonizer’ victim/victimizer Just So story (rampant amongst the ignorant Left these days). You believe it. I get it. Many do. That’s why you think this an equivalency. But in reality it’s not. Such a belief serves only one master: those who benefit from lies.
So Infidel753 raises the consequences of either holding this belief or is willing to stay quiet and go along with it. To pretend it’s valid and somewhat true. Those consequences he lays out should be shocking to anyone who does not see themselves as complicit in a Nazi-like genocidal agenda. Should be shocked. Ought to be shocked. Who sees themselves as a willing conspirator to another Nazi regime? Well, certainly not many who strive to achieve exactly this under some other nice sounding words and virtuous intentions. That’s what he’s pointing out.
Infidel753 is not a drooling idiot. Anyone who has read Infidel753’s comments over the years knows this. But the charge he levels should be motivation enough for anyone who disagrees to find out what IS true in reality and then have the moral fibre to refuse to go along with these equivalency lies. That was Solzhenitsyn’s defense against any totalitarian system that seeks to ensnare us in its Just So justifications: live not by lies. It’s hard, sure, and often very unpopular, but it is the one defense all of us can implement if we have the courage to admit when we’re wrong, admit when we’ve been fooled, recognize when we allow beliefs to trump what’s true (for whatever reason), have the strength of character to change our minds if reality as arbitrator dictates this to be aligned, and then stand firmly on this principle. Do not live by lies. Respecting what’s true as arbitrated by reality matters first and foremost. All the rest? Bullshit.
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Comment by tildeb — November 13, 2023 @ 1:13 pm |
Tildeb, are you saying it is faith based belief to think that Israel settled areas by force and removed families that lived in homes for decades and made them refugees?
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Comment by thespartanatheist — November 13, 2023 @ 1:33 pm |
No. I’m saying the context in which this happened is lost inside the faith-based belief narrative that Israel is a colonizing power.
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Comment by tildeb — November 13, 2023 @ 4:21 pm |
It IS a colonizing power. That is indisputable. It declares it will take over land and it does. That is not faith based, it’s history.
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Comment by thespartanatheist — November 13, 2023 @ 4:30 pm |
It does take land – usually through military conquest from invading armies – but it also swaps land and has removed thousands of Israeli settlers as part of various peace proposals. Again, not equivalent.
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Comment by tildeb — November 13, 2023 @ 4:33 pm |
Tildeb, I just want you to admit that Israel forcibly evicts Palestinians from their homes and then gives those homes to Israelis.
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Comment by thespartanatheist — November 13, 2023 @ 4:39 pm |
There have been some examples of this. Some settlers in the West Bank have done some terrible things like forcefully evicting legal landowners. And there have been successful lawsuits against some of these settlers. By Israeli courts. But the vast majority of ‘stolen’ land was vacated by many Arabs ahead of various invasions by Arab armies. Some returned and, with those Arabs and Druze and Bedouin who remained, they make up about 25% of the population in Israel. With full civil rights. Some serve in the Knesset. And the military. Did you know, for example, that Jews can sell land to anyone including Arabs? Conversely did you know any Arab seeling land to Jews faces the death penalty by the Palestinian Authority? Did you know the PA as a well as Hamas offers a bounty to be paid to anyone who kills Jews, that if ‘martyred’ while carrying out this ‘duty’ then the family will receive life pensions? Again, there simply is no equivalency. It’s a bullshit belief. But notice you completely ignore the 650,000 ethnic Jews exiled with loss of property and no compensation from Israel’s Arab neighbours after the Declaration. Why is it you have zero concern or any consideration whatsoever for these displaced people? Interesting, eh?
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Comment by tildeb — November 13, 2023 @ 10:10 pm
Tildeb, you keep deflecting. This is not about Hamas or Satan or Hillary Clinton. This question I put to you quite clearly is if Israel forcefully evicted people and gave their homes to Jews? Yes or no?
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Comment by thespartanatheist — November 14, 2023 @ 6:56 am
Yes.
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Comment by tildeb — November 14, 2023 @ 8:14 am
Okay, thank you.
I agree, bombing a lot of people is not a healthy response to government evictions. Bombing people is bad. Bombing people deserves condemnation.
But if I’m going to be honest, if the government of the US decided to forcefully evict, oh, let’s say Catholics from their houses and just gave them to Protestants, even if only in 2 towns in the whole country, the Catholics would storm the Capitol building with guns, right?
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Comment by thespartanatheist — November 14, 2023 @ 10:24 am
Never can be too sure, SA … they might just clutch their beads and say a few Hail Mary’s. Oh! And light a few candles.
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Comment by Nan — November 14, 2023 @ 10:31 am
No, that’s only if children are being murdered. Thoughts and prayers. A politician that might spend government money slightly different than you prefer? Storm the Capitol.
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Comment by thespartanatheist — November 14, 2023 @ 11:38 am
Not always, and not in this case. Many of the evictions create an impression of the Israeli government rounding up Palestinians and forcing them to get on the truck and go elsewhere and grossly inflating the numbers to make it seem like this is not an unusual occurrence. But it is. In fact, most of the ‘evictions’ have to do with Jerusalem and the refusal to pay rent because ownership is in dispute. Many of these legal disputes have gone on for decades. Hence the term ‘eviction’ when the ruling goes in favour of Jews. Anyway, because Jerusalem is partitioned and many Jews were forced to leave ancestral homes (and many killed during various uprisings) if they were in the ‘wrong’ section, these disputes are very much dependent on context and specific cases that have nothing to do with rounding up and herding Arabs to an onrush of land-stealing Jews as is often portrayed. But there is some merit of the claim with West Bank settlers (where the selling of land to a Jew is punishable by death from the Palestinian Authority), and I don’t think the government of Israel has done a very good job ending this deplorable practice and punishing those who commit this crime.
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Comment by tildeb — November 14, 2023 @ 11:05 am
Okay, so it’s complicated, both sides are being jerks. Occasionally one side will commit a horrible crime.
This is not what you said earlier. But thank you for softening the rhetoric.
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Comment by thespartanatheist — November 14, 2023 @ 11:33 am
Again, not equivalent. It’s very important to understand this massive discrepancy. Also, it’s important to grasp that Israel is really a country of refugees and not as is falsely believed by far too many to be some weird version of a colonizer state deserving of genocide.
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Comment by tildeb — November 14, 2023 @ 11:41 am
Right, Israel is a country forced upon the Palestinians by other countries to make good on a promise from a magical man 3000 years ago. So their homes and land are being taken by force, and they now live in refugee camps so that refugees from other parts of the world can feel superior.
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Comment by thespartanatheist — November 14, 2023 @ 11:44 am
No, it was to create a homeland for Jews after the last Holocaust. Their ancestral home was chosen and then negotiated into existence followed immediately by a multinational invasion by countries allied to the Nazis the previous year telling those Arabs who lived within the borders to get out. Those who remained are Israelis today even if they are Arabs or Christians of any ethnicity. You seem unaware that for centuries Jews and Arabs not only lived in this area but tended to live in ethnic pockets. And as the Jews brought farmland and businesses into being, more and more Arabs relocated to these burgeoning sites. The Jews have never carried out a pogrom against these ‘colonizers’. Rather, they expanded their boundaries and then gave back almost all of the same land after the first war of invasion only to have it used to stage and second, third, and fourth war of eradication. I think you know enough about topography in war to understand why Israel would not want to give back important strategic land they spilled much blood repeatedly taking from invaders.
Again, once the postmodern colonial bullshit narrative is removed from one’s eyes and actual history is allowed to describe and explain what is present today, the idea of equivalency in actions between a terrorist organization dedicated to genocide and a refugee state dedicated to survival is not equivalent.
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Comment by tildeb — November 14, 2023 @ 12:01 pm
Tildeb, you are justifying bad behavior. Stop it.
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Comment by thespartanatheist — November 14, 2023 @ 12:02 pm
Because it’s not ‘occasional’ that fits reality. One ‘side’ – Hamas – fires rockets into Israel every day to try to cause civilian casualties. Israel does not do this. And then Hamas carried out an orgy of mass murder in the most barbaric way possible inside Israel and filmed much of it in celebration and glee. Pretending this barbarism is ‘equivalent’ in any way, shape, or fashion to Israeli courts evicting Arabs from the Jewish Quarter after extensive court cases is not just abdicating one’s moral compass but losing it entirely.
BTW, how often have you read about the travesty of Bagdad where about 40% of the population at the beginning of the 20th century was Jewish. ‘Was’ is the operative word, speaking of ‘evictions’. Now? 4%? Nope. Maybe 4? Did you want to join a protest and demand justice for these tens of thousands of Jews? No? Huh. Funny whose evictions you care more about. What happened to the 25000 Jews living in Egypt at the same time? As of 2016, there were six in Cairo and twelve in Alexandria. As for Jerusalem? Following the 1948 war all Jews were expelled from the Jewish Quarter and Arabs took these ancestral homes. Yup. Just took them. After the 1967 war, Israel took this quarter back and began the long and arduous process of ‘evicting’ the Arabs. It probably slipped your mind that Jews were ever evicted without any legal recourse whatsoever but firmly recall that any Arabs evicted after that war is justification for claiming some measure of equivalency for the mass murdering death cults now carrying out daily attacks against Israel. Funny how your mind works.
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Comment by tildeb — November 14, 2023 @ 7:03 pm
Oh, but I forgot to mention that you are still glossing over the overtly racist reasons for the evictions. Again, Catholics storming the Capitol…
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Comment by thespartanatheist — November 14, 2023 @ 11:39 am
Racist? Well, ethnic certainly and mostly due to either negotiated settlements or displays of good will by Israel. Bu, yes, there are some cases of illegal occupation by Israeli settlers. Remember, Israel relocated over 6000 Israeli settlers who, according to Israeli courts, were occupying lands ceded to Palestinian authority in Gaza. That has come back to haunt Israel with the latest Hamas atrocity. But it doesn’t make it wrong when the intention was to find peaceful resolutions.
Notice, however, that your viewpoint continues to paint an equivalency that simply isn’t true in reality. Your approach reminds me of a religious advocate claiming that because knowledge isn’t 100% complete, this is equivalent to not knowing anything at all, and then using that reasoning to justify that all batshit crazy religious beliefs are equivalently valid. It’s just not true.
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Comment by tildeb — November 14, 2023 @ 11:49 am
Your efforts to whitewash the wrongdoing of Israel doesn’t change facts. The Palestinians have beef with Israel for forcing them out of their homes. You can call it bigoted or ethnic or racist, pick your term, but that doesn’t change the fact that Palestinians were targeted by government policy. Not by a guy, not by some jerks, by the government. The Palestinian people have every right to be angry at Israel. Their lives have been stripped of their homes and neighborhoods and jobs.
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Comment by thespartanatheist — November 14, 2023 @ 12:00 pm
No. That’s the narrative you believe. It allows no understanding of what’s true in reality (for equivalency to be true, you must compare and contrast and show a balance that in this case does not exist in reality) but imposes a blanket condemnation. That is not helpful except to those who wish to eradicate Jews. It certainly doesn’t help understand why the equivalency you claim is the case is absolutely false.
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Comment by tildeb — November 14, 2023 @ 12:06 pm
Tildeb, you seem to think that admitting Israel has a racist colonizing policy that creates Palestinian refugees is akin to abandoning the Jewish people.
Stop it. Religious people think that black and white.
This issue is complicated with both sides trading insults. And by insults I mean immoral or illegal actions toward the other. And supporting the side that’s only “half as bad” does nothing but enrage the other side, who see themselves as victims of 60 years of oppression.
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Comment by thespartanatheist — November 14, 2023 @ 12:10 pm
You demonstrate why this framing ideology you believe is useful is – in action – a moral catastrophe. You have rationalized that a jihadist death cult engaged in mass murder is equivalent to the only other country in the world that has displayed at a cenotaph every name of those killed in 9/11… because they understand what being targeted by a death cult means. And yet here you are, excusing the murder of 30 Americans by the death cult, taking another 10 Americans hostage by the death cult, as equivalent to a country that is fighting against a genocide and is doing so as an allied liberal democracy following the international law the death cult unabashedly rejects. Your rationalization of equivalency, of both-sides-ism, is truly breathtaking in its absolute moral capitulation to those who know that you yourself – or any of your fellow Westerners who are not their brand of Islam – is a sub-human and worthy of death. That’s why your beliefs about colonizers justifying their own mass murder is such a moral catastrophe. Because of beliefs like these, the West is rotting from the inside.
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Comment by tildeb — November 14, 2023 @ 4:19 pm
Tildeb, now you just spent three entire diatribes telling me what I think. You were 98% wrong. Congrats on that 2%
You admitted Israel commits systemic, illegal, racist forced evictions and colonization. That Israeli courts find them legal does not make it so, since it is the Israeli government doing the evictions.
You seem to have this notion that Israel accidentally commits one wrongdoing to a thousand by Hamas. I’m not sure where you get this data. I’m willing to let you direct me to something.
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Comment by thespartanatheist — November 14, 2023 @ 8:54 pm
SP, you continue to demonstrate the incoherence of your accepted ideology. The vast majority of Israelis are people of colour. I tried to indicate this error to you when you continued spouting ‘racism’ by suggesting it would be more accurate to use the term ‘ethnicity’ – as in Jewish ethnicity (because over 40% of Jews are not religious) – but you just continue on and allow reality no wiggle room in your accepted beliefs. This is not my error but yours. And it fuels your anti-Semitism. And there is a word for that.
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Comment by tildeb — November 14, 2023 @ 9:33 pm
Yeah, I already said use whatever term you want for government sponsored bigoted colonization.
When are you going to provide evidence of this massive lopsided campaign?
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Comment by thespartanatheist — November 14, 2023 @ 10:08 pm
Simple. The repeated refusals by ‘the Palestinians’ to create a two state solution. Hence the saying that ‘the Palestinians’ never miss an opportunity to miss an opportunity. Keep in mind there has never been a Palestinian state but that only Israel is trying to give them one. The evidence is that every organization that supposedly represents ‘the Palestinians’ will not negotiate peace but are dedicated to the eradication through genocide of all Israelis. But, yeah, you keep blaming Israel – and Jews, of course – if that fits your narrative and makes you feel good. Know, however, that doing so will guarantee never-ending conflict. And that’s what happens when you fail to account for reality’s arbitration of your beliefs. Just keep on keeping on.
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Comment by tildeb — November 15, 2023 @ 8:16 am
So you have no evidence. I’m shocked.
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Comment by thespartanatheist — November 15, 2023 @ 8:19 am
Wow. SA, once you reject reality to arbitrate your beliefs about it (there’s nothing but evidence you just wave away) as you have repeatedly done here (and then assigned blame to me for your rational depravations and deficits), you have fully embraced faith-based belief. I think that’s a vice. You think it’s a virtue. Crossing that chasm is impossible.
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Comment by tildeb — November 15, 2023 @ 8:25 am
Tildeb, how is anything you said in any way evidence? If anything, it demonstrates I’m right! If the Israelis really were killing lots of Palestinians, of COURSE they wouldn’t want to negotiate. Or it’s because they’re all evil little trolls. OR because bible God is hardening their hearts. OR they are racist fanaticals in their own right. OR the Israelis are poisoning peace talks.
All completely legitimate conclusions for your “evidence.” And if information doesn’t eliminate or point to any particular conclusion, it isn’t evidence.
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Comment by thespartanatheist — November 15, 2023 @ 8:29 am
Meanwhile, international, non-partisan NGOs routinely place a significant part of the blame on illegal and violent actions on the part of the Israelis.
YOU, sir, stand in contrast to people on the ground attempting to document and aid the humanitarian situation.
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Comment by thespartanatheist — November 15, 2023 @ 8:31 am
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Comment by tildeb — November 15, 2023 @ 9:46 am
A Twitter cartoon is your evidence?
Say that out loud to yourself one time.
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Comment by thespartanatheist — November 15, 2023 @ 10:07 am
I figured if you wouldn’t take reality’s overwhelming evidence, maybe a cartoon might help you understand the difference.
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Comment by tildeb — November 15, 2023 @ 1:25 pm
Okay, if I find a Twitter cartoon saying it’s all the fault of Jews, then you are ignoring reality. Wanna bet me I can find one?
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Comment by thespartanatheist — November 15, 2023 @ 1:33 pm
Okay, Tildeb. I’ll help you with some actual evidence. Actual data from the ground, and reports on the situation by those that are independent and there.
https://www.amnesty.org/en/location/middle-east-and-north-africa/israel-and-occupied-palestinian-territories/report-israel-and-occupied-palestinian-territories/
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Comment by thespartanatheist — November 15, 2023 @ 2:10 pm
Referring to Amnesty International for ‘evidence’ of Israeli crimes is like referring to Pravda for evidence of Ukrainian crimes. You have simply referred to fellow believers in your narrative. An obvious clue is how Israel is painted as anti women’s rights and anti-lgbq. Rather than swallow more of this obvious bullshit and think it is full of useful and flavourful anti-Israeli nutrients, compare and contrast honestly: do you HONESTLY believe that if you were a woman you’d choose to live under Hamas, that if you were gay or lesbian, would you choose to live under Hamas? Come on. Clearly, Amnesty International today is a captured woke organization that is dedicated to its anti-Semitism.
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Comment by tildeb — November 15, 2023 @ 3:38 pm
Lol! Rejection or reality much?
If I were a woman, I wouldn’t even want to live in the US. But I would prefer that over Israel, and prefer Israel over Hamas, and prefer that over living under the Taliban.
Amnesty international is being honest, not wearing rose colored glasses. That’s your problem with amnesty international. Their only objective is measure the good of humanity, not to prop up racist, colonizing governments as you are.
Go ahead. Find ANY unbiased NGO that says Israel is not suppressing the shit out of Palestinians. You can’t, because they are, and by government policy.
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Comment by thespartanatheist — November 15, 2023 @ 3:43 pm
You’ve lost the plot. Israel has nothing to do with Gaza since 2005, other than offer and deliver literally thousands of surgeries and employ 17,000 by special permit. The oppression of Palestinians lies fully with Hamas. But, of course, you cannot admit this truth without undermining your anti-Semitic narrative. In your views, Israel is responsible and guilty for every complaint by every Palestinian. Unfortunately, you’re far from alone. Many share your view. That’s why it’s a problem adequately and accurately described as a moral catastrophe. When the next genocide unfolds against Jews (the canary in the liberal democratic coal mine), never forget where you stood when it mattered most: imagining an equivalency that was just not real.
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Comment by tildeb — November 15, 2023 @ 3:56 pm
Tildeb, literally every NGO group in the region, Israel’s own laws, Israel’s own politicians, all reporters on the front lines or in the region, the stated objectives of both sides, and I are all wrong, your Twitter cartoon is right. Obviously. I feel so sheepish to have gone with the overwhelming evidence. I’m stupid, ugly, and I walk with a limp.
But you, clearly know better than the rest of the world.
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Comment by thespartanatheist — November 15, 2023 @ 4:47 pm
Good grief, SA! Haven’t you figured out by now that tildeb is always right and everyone else doesn’t know the hell of what they’re talking about.
(Sorry, tildeb … but that’s how you come across in every one of your :arguments. Seriously. the world won’t stop spinning if just once in awhile you said something like … well, that’s your opinion. I don’t agree.” and then let it go!)
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Comment by Nan — November 15, 2023 @ 5:42 pm
Hi, Nan! In all fairness, I can be hardheaded as well. But, well, all the most respected international humanitarian organizations agree with me. So, there’s that.
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Comment by thespartanatheist — November 15, 2023 @ 5:44 pm
Nan, be honest. You’re not serious in the least because you make a quip and then hide behind a ‘I don’t want to discuss it any further’ line and then pop up repeatedly to chastise me for daring to stand on principal with others and explain why it’s important to do so. Those reasons and explanations go unaddressed. So you consistently alter the principal I raise and defend to ALWAYS read as if it were only one equivalent opinion among many and not based on the multiple reasons offered. Not once do you point out to those who equally engage me and very often with snide and misrepresented comments that THEY are convinced THEY are always right but offer little if any engagement with the contentious points raised; instead, they shift to indirect points as SA has done here about fucking housing and tenant evictions as if germane. You save that criticism solely for me. Why is that, Nan? What are you adding? Correction to my tone? Correction to my style? Correction to the format? Self appoint much? Or do you see your job as one to teach me the ways you think I need to learn to comment to suit you. How condescending can you be? How about you deal with the contentious issues raised straight up and match your reasoning to these rather than what you see as my opinionated failings. At least then I might benefit. Infidel753 has made a claim that I think is really important especially for people like you, so let me remind you what he is saying: if you can’t stand up and condemn Hamas utterly in this case, then you are no better than the vast majority of Germans who failed to stand up to the last Jewish genocide. This is the opportunity to stand on principle. But rather than put up or shut up as he suggests about going along with false equivalencies (that I KNOW you support in the form of ‘different opinions’) and shifting blame for utter barbarism with whataboutery and transparent anti-Semitism, here you are again doing what you do best: contributing your own snide comments about me to others but trying to appear like any good agnostic apologist sitting on some imaginary pristine fence looking down at only one side at the peon in the muck who does put up and who does stand on principle and who does say unequivocally that Hamas is a fucking totalitarian death cult that is in no way equivalent to any government of any liberal democracy including Israel. You can’t even say that much of the truth, so bent is your moral compass to want more than anything to appear nice and fair even to those who share no humanity with you and are gleeful to prove it… or those who have been fooled into believing in this utterly false equivalency narrative. Infidel751’s claim is that now is that history has showed us that this is the time for all of us to stand up against the same equivalency bullshit that killed untold millions before us or be culpable. I choose not to be culpable. You choose differently because you think it’s just about differing but equivalent opinions. Yeah, go to Auschwitz and see where your opinion leads. But hey, that’s just my opinion.
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Comment by tildeb — November 15, 2023 @ 8:03 pm
Uh-huh. O.K. Thanks.
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Comment by Nan — November 15, 2023 @ 11:09 pm
Or you could compare and contrast fairly (not to mention learn some real history rather than go along with a skewed ideological bent that paints an unreal picture). Your false equivalency that derives from the ideological painting of reality is also supporting a shocking rise in a Nazi-like anti-Semitism throughout the West as it rears its ugly head once again. This is what matters here regarding Infidel’s concern, as does recognizing the moral inversion so may blog admins and commentators are using to mitigate/justify/excuse/paint the atrocities that have been carried out for real and violent hate based on the colonizer/colonized Just So story wildly distributed by every captured institution.
I think all of us need to get back to respecting what’s true first and then operating with this as our common ground – regardless of differences in specific opinions – to better understand what’s going on and offer – based on this shared RESPECT for reality rather than aligning our opinions in the service of a gross and negligent lie to show or divisive tribal membership – our support that can be best utilized to try to make things better for real people in real life regardless of these identity markers imported to skew its framing. We need to distrust our conclusions if based on belief. How ironic, then, that so many atheists who decry religion’s pernicious effects cannot recognize their own ideologically motivated beliefs in action that try to justify this ongoing and absurd moral inversion – obvious in overwhelming evidence in so many social areas polluted by the same PoMo ideology – right before their eyes.
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Comment by tildeb — November 17, 2023 @ 12:06 pm
Lol! Also, if we accept evolution is real, people will feel worthless and commit suicide.
Don’t argue based on what idiots do with the information. It makes you look like one of them.
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Comment by thespartanatheist — November 17, 2023 @ 2:21 pm
Do you know who hasn’t called for a ceasefire? Hamas. Now why might that be? (If you listened to Hamas leaders or read about Hamas’ stated goals, you’d realize this is a very easy answer that has nothing to do with Israel and everything to do with promoting death fro religious reasons.) I do not think progressive and liberal westerners who support a ‘free’ Palestine have any CLUE what they’re really supporting: their own deaths and the stripping of all civil rights for everyone. Stupid is as stupid does.
“In 1979, leftists who supported the Iranian Revolution had a rude awakening when the mullahs came to power and promptly executed them, along with secularists, union organizers, intellectuals, feminists, and everyone else who fit into the enormously capacious category of a counterrevolutionary. There was a lesson here: Activists have the responsibility to know who and what they support, and to separate themselves—openly and decisively—from programs and regimes that are predicated on violence and repression. Similarly, those who imagine that Hamas’s slaughters may have promoted “liberation,” “justice,” and “freedom” for Palestinians, as the banners demand, have a big surprise in store.
Unlike Iran in 1979, though, there’s no mystery as to what kind of state Hamas (an acronym for the Islamic Resistance Movement) aims to create; we need only look at what it already has created. This time, no one can plead ignorance. There’s little liberation, justice, or freedom to be found in Gaza, where there are no opposition political parties, no elections, and no freedom of religion, the press, or protest. Opponents are arrested, tortured, and sometimes executed. (Yahya Sinwar, a head of Hamas’s armed wing, was known as “the butcher of Khan Younis” for his brutality toward other Palestinians.) Abortion and homosexuality are outlawed (what are those protestors with “Queers for Palestine” signs thinking?); mentioning trans rights would be unwise. It is legal for husbands to beat their wives, and so-called honor killings go unpunished. The ruling clique is notoriously corrupt, and though Gazans are very poor, Hamas is a very rich organization. “I Stand with Palestine!” demonstrators and writers proudly proclaim while lauding Hamas for having “rejuvenated a sense of political possibility” and hastening “the hour of liberation.” But what, exactly, are they standing for? And what kind of liberation will this be? Aside from the Taliban, Hamas has established the least progressive pseudo-state on Earth. The lesson of Iran has apparently not been learned; history is repeating itself not as farce but as tragedy.”
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Comment by tildeb — November 19, 2023 @ 8:30 am
Tildeb? Are you still here? I don’t care about your feelings.
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Comment by thespartanatheist — November 19, 2023 @ 10:42 am
I thought you might still harbour some small spark that cares about aligning your beliefs with reality. So I thought I’d help. It’s my compassionate nature, donchaknow. Nothing ventured, and all that. Rest assured, however, that my feelings are no more harmed by you staying strong to your delusions than they are by any equivalent believer in, say, creationism. I just had higher hopes from your internet identity name suggesting a dedication to atheism. So what if I am wrong about that? I didn’t come up with that misnomer. You did. And then proved it.
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Comment by tildeb — November 19, 2023 @ 12:07 pm
Tildeb, you already admitted that Israel is by bigoted policy forcibly evicting Palestinians and giving their homes to Jews.
Why do you think continuing to tell me that this pisses off the Palestinians will somehow change that?
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Comment by thespartanatheist — November 19, 2023 @ 12:34 pm
Tildeb? You offer the fact that Palestinians are pissed. You offer Twitter memes. And you offer…. um, nope. Just those two things. Your entire argument is a Twitter meme at this point. Who is denying reality?
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Comment by thespartanatheist — November 19, 2023 @ 7:36 pm
Angry at Israel? Are you kidding me? Wow. You’ve lost the plot entirely.
The PRIMARY cause of Palestinian suffering is Hamas and Islamic Jihad in Gaza, the PLO in the West Band, and Hezbollah in the north. That’s what’s true. Want to criticize land disputes? Fine. But those have zero to do with jihad. You’ve managed to completely fool yourself.
These death cults commit terrorist acts EVERY DAY against Israeli citizens and anyone inside that border. Rocket malfunctions have killed literally hundreds Palestinians. Tunnel digging by children have killed hundreds of Palestinians. You don;t give a rat’s ass about any of this and this fact matters not a tinker’s damn to you in your conviction that Israel has to be the Worst Country In The World. The atrocity of October 7th – equivalent to an invasion of Texas and the wanton killing, raping, and butchering of 40,000 Americans – is magically justified or understandable or somehow excusable as they-did-it-to-themselves bullshit in the face of some evictions you think are unfair. Babies put alive in ovens and roasted to death. Glee not only by the perpetrators during the mass murdering clearly available in hundreds and hundreds of go-pro videos but streamed by the barbarisms to the world. Glee again from world wide supporters showing up in Western capitals and large cities celebrating the killing of anyone of any nationality of any religion in that country on that date. Thais, Canadians. Brits. Germans. French. And certainly dozens of Americans. Your blame towards Israel is barely concealed anti-Semitism that says more about you and the deplorable morally confused state of the West than any criticism you can raise about Israeli policies. Condemnation of Hamas and all jihadists should be front, center, and alone. All the rest is just bullshit.
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Comment by tildeb — November 14, 2023 @ 4:34 pm
“Israel is genociding Palestinians in Gaza.” Bullshit claim.
Genocide (OED): The deliberate killing of a large group of people, especially those of a particular race or nation.
If Israel wanted to kill Palestinians, they could. In a relatively short time. But it’s a funny kind of “genociding” where the population grows every year (about 2%, about the 30th fastest in the world). I guess the Israelis are just really, really bad at it. Or, more likely, your claim is utter bullshit.
“It (Israel) has killed more civilians in three weeks than Ukraine and Russia have all war.”
Really? Considering that we know about 500,000 combined Ukrainians and Russians have died over the past 18 months in Ukraine, I think it’s both easy and safe to say with a very high degree of confidence that your claim here is not only bullshit but ridiculously so. It raises the question in my mind of what motivates you to spread such bullshit that runs so obviously contrary to reality? Could it be… oh, I don’t know… maybe anti-Semitism unleashed? Let’s see…
“Over 60% of casualties are children and women.” Yes, because Hamas uses civilians as human shields. Nice to see you condemning Hamas for using this atrocious tactic. Oh, wait…
“They are deliberately flattening as many residential buildings as possible.” Again, maybe you don’t understand the capabilities of modern warfare but let me assure you, Israel could flatten Gaza City in weeks if they so decided. Obviously, they have not. Makes one wonder why. So your claim is once again bullshit.
“They have bombed multiple hospitals.” Hamas command and control centers are both in and under not just hospitals but medical clinics and schools and mosques. Golly gee whiz, how did that ever happen? It must be Israel’s fault, am I right? Pay no attention to radio calls, targeted cellphone calls, hundreds of thousands of dropped leaflets, loudspeaker calls, all carried out by Israel 12 hours prior to any attack to try to reduce civilian casualties by Israeli forces goin after Hamas infrastructure. This reality, however, doesn’t comport with the whole Israeli “genociding” thing you are claiming so why bother with what’s true on the ground if it doesn’t fit with your… reason for spreading bullshit. But the attempt by Israel is clear. Again, though, do not condemn Hamas for this terrorist tactic of hiding behind civilians, whatever you do.
A ceasefire is a military victory for Hamas. What you are saying is that Israel should unilaterally (because Hamas is never, ever going to negotiate for peaceful coexistence) lay down their arms so that Hamas can get back to trying to eradicate Israelis (from the river to the sea), which is what Hamas’ charter clearly states, clearly and unambiguously, is their reason for being. To kill Jews. And not just in Israel. THIS is the real world genocide you not only fail to either criticize or condemn but supposedly supports ‘Palestine’ and ‘Palestinians’ under the genocidal, Palestinian-killing Hamas. Steve, you’re promoting a genocide. A real one. Shame on you.
Do a little thought experiment: how ‘free’ would Palestinians be if Israel were eradicated and every Jew killed. Would there magically arise a freedom to speak one’s mind? Freedom to gather? Freedom to worship as one wished? Freedom to have a critical press? Freedom to organize different political parties? Freedom to be openly gay? Freedom for women to follow their interests? All of these are available in Israel. None of these are available to Palestinians under Islamic Jihad, Hezbollah, the Palestinian Authority, and certainly not by Hamas in Gaza. So I don’t understand how any westerner used to these kinds of freedoms can use them like you have here to then try to rationalize their loss to be somehow a ‘better’ way to live. It makes no sense. unless driven by irrational hatred.
Free Palestine? By all means, free them from the barbaric anti-human beliefs of these Islamic Terrorist groups in positions of authority. At the very least, recognize that freeing Palestine means to free Palestinians from both Hamas and deluded westerners who continue to support it.
Oh, BTW, both Egypt and Jordan very much support keeping Palestinian settlements out of their territories because – you know, the whole terrorism thing – and so both are strong supporters of Israel in this conflict.
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Comment by tildeb — November 13, 2023 @ 11:00 am |
Tildeb, as a former military officer, it is clear to me that you don’t understand target planning. The Israelis wanted to and did kill women and children. To make a statement. That is just a fact. Any conclusions you arrive at that Israel was innocently trying to conduct war are ill-informed.
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Comment by thespartanatheist — November 13, 2023 @ 12:29 pm |
Do you listen to yourself? You are convinced IDF targets women and children apparently to “make a statement.” What statement? What evidence would convince you that you were wrong when you already ‘know’ this? Remember, Israel has both tactical battlefield and long range nukes and the capability in such a small area to effectively carpet bomb Gaza City into rubble.
So why the ground offensive? Why the broadcasts? Why the pauses? Hamas does none of these. Yet here you are claiming equivalency. Based on what? Body count? Because that’s ALL you’ve got and the one card Hamas can play over and over and over and over and over…. you get the idea. Where is you utter condemnation of Hamas, of Islamic Jihad, of Hezbollah, of Houthis, of the Palestinian Authority, of all things NOT equivalent with Israel? Why does it not concern you that none of these organizations will EVER negotiate for peace? You hold Israel to a non equivalent standard and then condemn it for daring to defend itself. What kind of soldier are you?
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Comment by tildeb — November 13, 2023 @ 1:29 pm |
Tildeb, I’m willing to entertain a lot from you, but again, you obviously know nothing at all of tactics or targeting.
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Comment by thespartanatheist — November 13, 2023 @ 1:35 pm |
No, you will want to know why I said that. So here goes:
Targeting is a process of choosing targets based on tactical or strategic objectives. Targets are then assigned a number of characteristics the planners can use to choose where to focus their fires. Collateral damage is ALSO considered in the targeting process. These targeting meetings take hours. Every target has a specific purpose. And lawyers are present, to confirm the legal use of firepower.
When we do make a mistake, we have solid legal footing to say the target was selected for reasons that meet or exceed legal thresholds.
The Israelis didn’t do that.
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Comment by thespartanatheist — November 13, 2023 @ 1:42 pm |
What you have said is that Israel targets women and children, which is false. What I suspect you mean is that Israel is guilty of indiscriminate bombing AS A POLICY which, again, is false. Although I do not doubt for one second that targeting a tunnel under apartments and multi-story housing has resulted in women and children being killed, the POLICY is to give these civilians a chance to get out. You have not indicated that you understand the difference because you presume a false equivalency where the Hamas POLICY actually DOES target civilians with no warning. The clue rests with the non stop missiles (full of fuel, surprising no one paying attention) being fired from Gaza City including from the parking lots of hospitals and playgrounds of schools with no military objective in sight. This is why I keep on saying – and you seem unable to recognize – that there is no equivalency here.
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Comment by tildeb — November 13, 2023 @ 4:29 pm |
Tildeb, don’t argue like a religious person. The wrongdoing of Hamas is not our current discussion. Israel had no legitimate reason to target certain locations. The end.
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Comment by thespartanatheist — November 13, 2023 @ 4:31 pm |
Actually, I was trying in my own way to offer you a glimpse into why Infidel753 might think his time on your site was not worth his usual contribution. That’s why I quoted him. Perhaps another reading of it and thinking about what he’s accusing you and other badly misguided ‘equivalence’ believers are allowing to unfold.
I have also tried to show why the equivalence argument is not only extremely dubious aligning with reality but is actually and deeply anti-Semitic. Such racism is anti-human. It’s objectifying people into groups. I consider support for that belief a moral failure, sure, but sticking with it is a personal choice to reject reality in favour of a bullshit narrative that requires abdicating one’s civic duty to enlightenment principles while intentionally excusing if not supporting the very worst of human depravity. That’s the consequence of holding that belief. So belief in maintaining this false equivalency is by consequence a rejection of humanity. And that’s how objectification of real people in real life into despised sub-human groups that perpetuates itself by the suffering of others allows so many people to ally themselves with barbaric totalitarians who wantonly kill and spread terror for their own batshit crazy religious and/or ideological beliefs.. and think themselves righteous for doing so. That’s the Big Lie. I think it is evil incarnated to support this false equivalency. And it is moral cowardice to stay silent in the face of its rising popularity.
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Comment by tildeb — November 13, 2023 @ 9:41 pm |
Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_weapons_and_Israel):
The State of Israel is widely believed to possess nuclear weapons … However, Israel maintains a policy of deliberate ambiguity, never officially denying nor admitting to having nuclear weapons,
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Comment by Nan — November 13, 2023 @ 1:42 pm |
True, Nan. But I’m leaning my opinion on military officers in my family who have spent time with the IDF in various capacities and have said as much. I may be wrong because I don’t know for sure. But it’s a weird thing to make up (since the 80s, in fact).
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Comment by tildeb — November 13, 2023 @ 4:31 pm |
Ever notice that at every western ‘demonstration’ in support of Hamas by calling for a unilateral ceasefire by only Israel is some flag waving group that says ‘Queers FOR Palestine’? Yet perhaps you’ve noticed we never, ever, find ‘queers IN Palestine’? Well a guy last week was beheaded in the West Bank by the PA for committing sodomy. Nice kind of ‘freedom’ you’re supporting here, Steve.
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Comment by tildeb — November 13, 2023 @ 11:14 am |
@Spartan.
If I may…
Correct me if I am wrong.
Are you asserting the IDF are specifically targeting women and children?
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Comment by Ark — November 13, 2023 @ 2:10 pm |
I’m just going to put this here without comment. The source is a newsletter called “The Morning” that I get from the NYTimes.
“The Israeli government says it will not allow any political or security role for Hamas in ruling Gaza, but Hamas has firm control of Gaza now,” my colleague Julian Barnes, who covers intelligence from Washington, told me. “The problem is that the tactics Israel is using to destroy the tunnels, eliminate the weapons and force Hamas out of power is causing huge civilian suffering, which in turn is putting pressure on the government to stop. And it is increasing pressure on Israel’s allies to make the government change tactics.” (My emphasis)
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Comment by Nan — November 14, 2023 @ 6:06 pm |
I thought this was worth sharing (there’s been a massive rise in anti-Semitic hate crime here since Oct 7 with nary a peep out of any government spokespeople other than anemic versions of both-sides-ism and I’ve dropped all the links):
“Regardless of what anyone might think, being “progressive” is not some form of inoculation against racism and bias. There are clearly Jew-haters in the progressive movement, to found in our public-sector trade unions, certainly online, and even the Ontario provincial legislature. Some have faced consequences for this, but the reaction from many of my friends in the progressive left, especially on the far left, has been a collective shrug. In short: these people aren’t hateful, they’re just misguided.
But nobody accepts “misguided” as an excuse when it’s someone else’s political tribe, and Jewish Canadians are under no obligation to accept it as an excuse if someone gets hurt. With police chiefs around the country warning that anti-Jewish hate crimes are spiking alarmingly, the question may not be “if” for much longer, but “when.” If you’re a part of the progressive movement in Canada: you have a duty, an obligation, to seek out and eject these people. They exist in your movement, and sticking your head in the sand just isn’t good enough. Repudiate them, push them out, make clear that they don’t represent you.
Because if you don’t, they do.
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Comment by tildeb — November 15, 2023 @ 4:27 pm |
Thespartanatheist tries to add bullshit by pretending to, “help you with some actual evidence. Actual data from the ground, and reports on the situation by those that are independent and there.”
So what is this help? From Amnesty International:
On November 14, an Amnesty tweet suggested that Israel could not attack Hamas installations even if they were “near hospitals”: “Hospitals and medics must be protected at all times. No one should be conducting hostilities near hospitals or endangering the lives of the sick and wounded, or the doctors and nurses desperately trying to save lives in nightmarish conditions.”
What does international law tell us? Hospitals and other medical facilities lose their civilian status if “they are used by a party to the conflict to commit, outside their humanitarian functions, an ‘act harmful to the enemy’.” Examples provided by the International Committee for the Red Cross include “a hospital used as a base from which to launch an attack; as an observation post to transmit information of military value; as a weapons depot; as a center for liaison with fighting troops; or as a shelter for able-bodied combatants.”
So granted that Amnesty International IS on the ground and works with those at the 35 hospitals in Gaza City (what other ‘poor’ city has 35 hospitals?) then isn’t it quite interesting that they either knew absolutely nothing about the command and control center under Gaza’s largest hospital or…. clutch you pearls people… that knew perfectly well but LIED. And lied. And lied. And have been lying for years. Hmmm… I wonder which is the case?
But in regards to Thespartanatheist’s assurances that these NGOs and UN bodies tell us the truth in order to condemn Israel repeatedly but never the terrorist death cult called Hamas, well, we can put that absurd claim directly in the bullshit category and those who continue to believe it as deniers of reality.
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Comment by tildeb — November 23, 2023 @ 12:07 pm |