Uncommon Sense

June 23, 2024

The Bizarreness of Space-Time

Filed under: Culture,Reason,Science — Steve Ruis @ 8:47 am
Tags: , ,

I am not a fan of the concept of space-time, which will not surprise regular readers of this blog. Much of Einstein’s work is now coming into doubt for various and sundry reasons. And space-time is one concept I would love to see being done away with.

Okay, where to start? Let us start with the concept of space. Concepts about space were initially centered on locations. Primitive people wanted to know where to find drinkable water, prey to hunt, etc. Communications probably focused on paths, basically where to put your feet on a journey. (Some argue that tracking signs on those paths led to the development of language and possibly consciousness.) This was there, that was over there, a warm place in winter was far, far away that way, etc.

As we became more intellectual we characterized space with organizing schemes with directions, units of distance, directions such as “keep the Sun at your back,” and “head toward that mountain,” etc. Math students are familiar with the Cartesian coordinate system, a framework for mapping three dimensional space. We also have the system of latitude and longitude to grid out locations on the surface of the earth. All such systems, however, have to be pegged down somehow. We have the prime meridian, for example, and the equator, and the north and south poles all of which are arbitrarily placed. Even the Cartesian coordinate system has an origin, which must be placed in a fixed position with the three axes then placed into fixed orientations to be able to be used to locate things.

I think you can see that space is not a thing. It has no grounding in nature. Sure we can talk about how we need to add onto our houses because we “need more space,” or Hitler went to war so as to have control over lebensraum, basically space in which Germans could live and grow crops, etc. talking about space as if it were a real thing, but it is not.

So, when Einstein embraced the idea that space could expand it was basically bizarre to most of the other physicists at the time. It was not without some logic. Gravity, unlike all of the other forces in nature, didn’t seem to have a medium and also seemed to act instantaneously. Having objects that move by moving along distorted lines of space solved a number of problems, but created an even greater number (most of which have been swept under various rugs).

How is it that masses (not volumes) of matter can distort space, warp it in fact? If a moving asteroid approaches Earth it follows the “grid” of distorted space-time, and follows a curved path toward the Earth as if the Earth were attracting it. But why do such objects always follow those grid lines down, rather than away from the masses causing the distortion? This “gravity is due to spatial distortion” idea is incomplete.

And then we have time, something we still struggle to define. Basically it was a measure of duration. We say things like “I was sick for three days.” That gives your listener an idea of how long you suffered. But is time a “thing?” Can it be expanded or contracted? Subjectively we feel time is quite capricious in how it seems to pass in our experience. But instruments we have devised to track durations, clocks, watches, etc., seem to tick along consistently showing no such variations. It seems like time can be subjective or objective.

But is time a dimension? The definition of the term dimension includes “a measurable extent of some kind, such as length, breadth, depth, or height.” So, time can be considered to be a dimension and we often create graphs showing how things change over time. But this is merely for our convenience and edification, it does not establish that the dimension of time is a physical thing, certainly not one that can expand or contract.

And the creation of space-time? The three spatial dimensions are linked together through the simple fact that all physical objects are three dimensional, Guy Fieri’s joke about “meat sliced so thin it only has one side” aside. But time is a measure of duration and this might be linked to an object (like a rain drop that evaporates) but linked to other non-time dimensions? On what basis? Is there a ratio linking the two, e.g. how many parts of space are equivalent to one part of time, etc.

So, space (not a thing) is linked to time (not a thing) and it is expanding because . . . because. . . .

People are not told inconvenient details, for example according to current theory space-time is expanding, but only between the galaxies, not within them. Then the explanation of “expanding space-time” does not include a reason for this being even possible, possibly due to a reliance on the General Theory of Relativity of Einstein being a largely mathematical construct and not a conceptual one. Other theories do account for this but those theories are “out of fashion,” I guess would be the term.

And the BBT theory is linked to a particular aspect of GRT, that being that space is inherently “empty.” Photons of light are traveling to us though empty space and since they are red-shifted, their wavelengths must be lengthening because space-time is stretching. No explanation is given why objects in space would be stretched as space containing them was being stretched, of course.

There is more than one fly in this ointment. For example, the physics community was convinced BE (before Einstein) that space wasn’t empty, that it was filled by what was called the “luminiferous aether” or just aether for short. The existence of this was hypothesized as being the medium through which light traveled through otherwise empty space.

There was an experiment, the Michelson-Morley experiment, which was an attempt to measure the motion of the Earth through that aether and it came up with a near null result and so some concluded from that that the aether didn’t exist, but that is not what that experiment showed. This was one of those situations in which scientists get their exercise by jumping to conclusions. All kinds of interpretations were possible and eventually experiments done at different altitudes produced different results, thus supporting the existence of an aether. Also, a simple reason that the M-M experiment got near null results is that the Earth might be dragging the aether along with it as it rotated in space and revolved around the Sun. After all the Earth drags its atmosphere around with it.

If there is indeed an aether, then the light from distant galaxies would not be traveling through a vacuum but through a medium and light always loses energy when traveling through a medium. Since it cannot slow down, the loss of energy would show up as a frequency shift downward/wavelength shift upward (toward the red end of the spectrum). And the longer it traveled, the more energy it would lose and the more red-shifted it would become.

Oh, and by the way, later in his career, Einstein switched back to the position that there was an aether after all, even though it made quite some bits of this theories obsolete.

Books have been written explaining physics with an aether included. Studies are still being done. More than a few of the weirdnesses of modern physics get explained very simply through these alternative theories without getting into theoretical dead ends like dark energy, dark matter, cosmic inflation. But because they are “out of fashion” the best minds aren’t focused upon them, which we really would need to create better progress.

Stay tuned.

21 Comments »

  1. Oh boy..over my head, but thoughts…..
    If I go the moon today and it’s 239,000 miles away, that’s the space between us measured in miles. If it takes me 239 hours, I’m traveling at (you do the math.ha) mph, that is the time it takes to get there.
    But if I do this in several billion years from now, I have to go more hours at the same speed, because the moon is farther away. So has space expanded between us, or has the moon itself, somehow moved farther out and if so, why and how? And I have always read that the expansion is between local groups of galaxies and not the stuff within the groups. So the space between us and the moon isn’t expanding, so why does it move farther away?

    Why do you not believe that space is expanding? Seems so logical to me. If new star stuff is always being created, wouldn’t space eventually get crowded if it didn’t expand?

    I need to re read your post. I’ve always found this subject fascinating even though I’m quite naive about most of it.

    Liked by 1 person

    Comment by maryplumbago — June 23, 2024 @ 9:43 am | Reply

    • Re “Why do you not believe that space is expanding? Seems so logical to me. If new star stuff is always being created, wouldn’t space eventually get crowded if it didn’t expand?”

      I have no problem with things in space separating from one another, e.g. moving away from one another. I cannot for the life of me attribute this to space itself expanding and the things in it are just along for the ride.

      Also, the universe is unlikely to be crowded. If a star forms, stuff is actually getting farther apart, since the stuff making that star fell down toward the center of gravity of the star as it fell. That stuff was getting farther away from things it was near in order to get closer to the forming star. In the US, more and more people are living in cities. The US isn’t getting more crowded, just the cities are.

      Liked by 1 person

      Comment by Steve Ruis — June 23, 2024 @ 10:44 am | Reply

  2. Whatever you say … 😊

    Liked by 1 person

    Comment by Nan — June 23, 2024 @ 10:59 am | Reply

    • Nan, I assume that all of my readers are adults and skip over the parts they aren’t interested in, subjects like baseball and physics. You are a role model for that cohort, so don’t be afraid of using snark or other distain tools, you are a gem and cannot offend me. :o)

      Like

      Comment by Steve Ruis — June 24, 2024 @ 11:39 am | Reply

      • GOOD! I most definitely to not mean to offend! Just being my occasional snarky self. 😈

        I admit there was a time when this topic would have interested me, but “as time passes,” miscellaneous and sundry topics no longer seem important in the grand view of life. Wonder why that is … ?? 🤔

        Like

        Comment by Nan — June 24, 2024 @ 12:42 pm | Reply

  3. I didn’t realize this until after our last discussion on the topic but actually Minkowski created the concept of space-time. Special relativity didn’t have it but general relativity used to it to explain gravity.

    The concepts from physics of space, time, or space-time may represent something real, but they also are attempts to scientify subjective experience. Time might actually be a subjective creation we use to make sense of our changing selves in a changing world. Memory and imagination (reappropriating memory by relocating it to the future) both are aspects of learning and making predictions. We only know of causality because we put events in sequence, but if that is subjective, it could be that causality is always forward and backward.

    Liked by 2 people

    Comment by James Cross — June 23, 2024 @ 11:46 am | Reply

    • D.B. Larsen suggests that time is three dimensional, like space. From that concept he derived the basic rules of physics and obviated much of the nonsense of relativity theory. (I am not claiming to understand Larsen, But I have a half dozen of his books and while he spends an inordinate amount of time complaining about the status quo, he isn’t wrong about it.

      Liked by 1 person

      Comment by Steve Ruis — June 24, 2024 @ 11:36 am | Reply

      • I’m more likely to think time might be treated mathematically as a dimension but as a “real” thing doesn’t exist. Change happens and because some changes are regular we can use them for measurement.

        Have you ever looked at Julian Barbour?

        Also, this is interesting in relationship to change (and time) for biological entities

        https://wordpress.com/read/feeds/144936555/posts/5275292653

        Like

        Comment by James Cross — June 25, 2024 @ 7:20 am | Reply

        • I have not read Barbour before, but the Amazon blurb contained this chestnut: “Why, when most laws of physics allow for it to flow forward and backward, does it only go forward?” The laws of physics do not allow it to flow forward and backward. How can a law based upon it only flowing forward allow for it to flow backward . . . unless the mathematical coding is incorrect, which it is. This is like assuming an absolute value instead of the value itself and then claiming the value can be either positive or negative.

          I am fascinated at how many theories, fairly complete ones are available that are not part of our discourse. Theories in which all material particles are formed from the aether, or gravitation is formed from motion, or that time only exists because of motion, and so on.

          Liked by 1 person

          Comment by Steve Ruis — June 25, 2024 @ 10:14 am | Reply

          • “The reversibility of the laws of physics implies that given the state of a physical system at a particular time, it is always possible to work out uniquely both its future and its past. Time reversal invariance would further imply that the rules for going in each direction should be identical. ”

            https://www.wolframscience.com/nks/notes-9-3–time-reversal-invariance/#:~:text=The%20reversibility%20of%20the%20laws,each%20direction%20should%20be%20identical.

            Liked by 1 person

            Comment by James Cross — June 26, 2024 @ 7:37 am | Reply

            • I can’t believe I am disagreeing with you, of all people. That is not time invariance, it is projection into the past. A farmer inspecting a field of corn can assume that he planted that field sometime in the past, from present evidence). We assume the laws of physics were acting back then, so we are not projecting those laws into the past, they were in existence back then.

              So, assuming those laws were operant in the past is not the same as using those laws to project backward in time.

              Like

              Comment by Steve Ruis — June 26, 2024 @ 9:36 am | Reply

              • What are we disagreeing about again?

                The quote is from Stephen Wolfram.

                Drop a weight from Point A and let it fall to Point B under force of gravity. Apply the same force to the ball in the opposite direction at Point B and the ball moves to Point A. Many microscopic and particle interactions behave like this.

                The classic example of reversibility is billiards balls striking each other. You can play a video forwards or backwards of the movements and you can’t tell which way it happened.

                That everything isn’t like that is what provides time a direction. The so-called Arrow of Time. That is the subject of Barbour’s book.

                Like

                Comment by James Cross — June 27, 2024 @ 7:28 am | Reply

      • I commented but with two links it’s in moderation., FYI.

        Like

        Comment by James Cross — June 25, 2024 @ 7:21 am | Reply

  4. People are not told inconvenient details, for example according to current theory space-time is expanding, but only between the galaxies, not within them

    As I understand it, space is expanding everywhere, however, the effect within a scale like a solar system, or even a galaxy, is very small compared to the effects of gravity. It’s only once you start dealing with large amounts of relatively empty space that the effects of spatial expansion become noticeable.

    Liked by 1 person

    Comment by Herald Newman — June 23, 2024 @ 2:10 pm | Reply

    • Sounds reasonable, but nope. I, of course, am yielding to those actually doing the research. If you want to look into this, I think I can find a reference for you.

      Like

      Comment by Steve Ruis — June 24, 2024 @ 11:32 am | Reply

  5. Yeah, this whole thing bugs me too. In a way it sounds like all they did was change their terminology? So they abandoned the idea that there was some kind of medium, the “aether”, that supported the movement of waves like sound waves through the atmosphere. But now spacetime is somehow also a medium in its own right in that it provides for a way for gravity to work? They’re claiming they can now detect the movement of gravity waves moving through spacetime? So if aether was the medium that supported the transmission of light, gravity, etc. And they decided it didn’t exist, so they created another medium and called it spacetime because it supports the movement of waves over distance, what the eff is the difference?

    My brain hurts.

    Liked by 2 people

    Comment by grouchyfarmer — June 23, 2024 @ 4:15 pm | Reply

    • Bingo! You have hit upon one of the greatest problems with relativity theories. As it turns out Einstein lifted many of his ideas from others (without citations) and every one of his seminal papers was followed by a half dozen or so “clarifications” often due to mathematical errors he had made. This is particularly damning because Einstein was arguing that we needed to “follow the math” and not worry about physical interpretations, you know the process that worked for many centuries.

      Liked by 1 person

      Comment by Steve Ruis — June 24, 2024 @ 11:17 am | Reply

      • Well, the Loerentz Transformations (which describe how measurements of space and time change for observers moving relative to eachother) imply there is no preferred frame of reference as would be needed for an aether. All inertial frames are equivalent, and the speed of light is invariant cross the frames.

        Like

        Comment by omnitheory — June 27, 2024 @ 3:17 pm | Reply

  6. Ok so you’re saying galaxies etc. move through space and get farther apart as opposed to they don’t move at all, but the space between them balloons out?
    Seems a tough one to prove either way.
    And if there was no big bang and no expanding space, that everything was just here, but really crowded together and slowly or not so slowly, moved farther from each other through a static endless space.
    So billions of years ago, space was the same size as it is now, just rather empty..waiting for the galaxies and the continual star forming processes, on their journey outward.

    Liked by 2 people

    Comment by maryplumbago — June 23, 2024 @ 9:12 pm | Reply

    • Actually, static universe theories do not include the birth scenario of the BBT, but point to myriad ways that matter gets recycled in the cosmos. Basically, it has always been there churning away. As to fitting the data we have, a static universe theory fits. Erwin Hubble who discovered the red-shift vs. distance relationship originally suggested the Doppler Shift explanation, but dropped that idea later on, but we are still selling it to school children. It was that “data” that lead to the thinking that if the universe has been expanding for X years, it must have been smaller earlier on, and with all of the energy confined into a smaller space, hotter, too. But if that data is incorrectly interpreted, the BBT falls apart.

      (Actually it fell apart three times before the current model rose, and this one is also full of nonsense: cosmic inflation of space-time, dark energy, dark matter, etc. When theories acquire ad hoc patches to make them make sense, if you do not find causes for those patches, it is a clear sign the theory is out of gas and will be kicked to the curb shortly. The dark matter, dark energy hypotheses have been around for decades and there has been no evidence for their existence so far, even though people are furiously looking for it.)

      Like

      Comment by Steve Ruis — June 24, 2024 @ 11:25 am | Reply

      • Your take on the static universe makes more sense to me..and I know the concept of something always have been is a hard one. But it also makes sense, if you think about pure nothingness before any big bang, which doesn’t make sense. To me, pure nothingness would always be nothingness. There would never have been anything, if that were the case. It’s just wrapping your head around the idea of something always existing….in some form, at least.
        Ah….things well never know for sure.

        Liked by 1 person

        Comment by maryplumbago — June 24, 2024 @ 3:08 pm | Reply


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