Class Warfare Blog

October 28, 2019

Come Out, Come Out, Wherever You Are!

Filed under: Reason,Religion — Steve Ruis @ 10:31 am
Tags: , ,

Theists often claim that their god(s) is “beyond space and time.” Once again this is made up bullstuff to explain the lack of footprints of their god where all could see them. But consider the following argument:

[God] endures always and is present everywhere, and by existing always and everywhere he constitutes duration and space.” Basically this argument is reiterating the claim that the Christian god (the one under discussion) was omnipresent (“He knows when you are sleeping, he knows when you’re awake, He knows when you’ve been bad or good so be good for goodness’ sake!”) and eternal. So Yahweh is always looking over your shoulder because he is everywhere simultaneously. And since he has been since the beginning, he is infinite, so time (duration) and space are also infinite.

This argument was made by none other than Isaac Newton, who was defending his new theory of gravity (which knocked the pins out from under the Church’s view of the cosmos). Newton was still a devout believer but he was not buying the current opinion of the church-favored that the universe could not be infinite. According to Newton, for Yahweh to be Yahweh, space and time had to be infinite. And, I wouldn’t want to be on the other side of an argument from Isaac Newton (outgunned, seriously outgunned, I would be).

So, there are still people apologetically claiming that their God is “beyond space and time” and I am willing to play the game far enough to consider that possibility, but at the same time he is within space and time, everywhere and everywhen. So, that he can be beyond space and time is not an explanation for why we are completely lacking in evidence for him within space and time since he is also here now.

This post won’t stop apologists from making this claim (and making up even more contradictory bullshite) because they didn’t reason their way into their belief and they can’t reason their way out of it, so my aim is to prevent people from adopting such silly, false beliefs in the first place and then hope that the believers just die off (like the Shakers had the grace to do).

68 Comments »

  1. “…hope that the believers just die off (like the Shakers had the grace to do).”
    I’m with you on this! The sooner I die, the better.

    Like

    Comment by John Branyan — October 28, 2019 @ 11:21 am | Reply

  2. They are, of course, just basically making stuff up. The first gods lived on mountain tops or the bottoms of lakes or underground, but when we reached those places and, guess what, they weren’t there, they had to keep moving their gods farther and farther away. They finally came up with the ultimate hiding place for them, entirely outside of the universe. And like everything else they claim, when you ask them how this is possible, their ultimate fallback is god is god and can do any bloody thing he wants and we just can’t understand him. But we do understand that he wants you to give our preachers and churches all your money. Oh, and he hates homosexuals. We know that too. But everything else? We don’t know none of that because god is god and we can’t understand him.

    Oh brother… I swear we are descending into a world of superstitious drivel the likes of which we haven’t seen since the 1400’s.

    Liked by 2 people

    Comment by grouchyfarmer — October 28, 2019 @ 11:32 am | Reply

    • All those things that used to be god are fields of study now. Really, you could print all the useful parts of the Bible in a pamphlet.

      Liked by 4 people

      Comment by jim- — October 28, 2019 @ 5:20 pm | Reply

  3. beyond space and time… Until they need him meddling in earthly affairs.

    Liked by 4 people

    Comment by john zande — October 28, 2019 @ 11:47 am | Reply

    • There must be something like a “Break Glass in Case of Fire” cabinet in order to pull old Yahweh back into the here and now when he is needed. But considering how many time people have pleaded with his to come save their asses only to hear crickets, being beyond space and time must be quite peaceful and restful for old Yahweh. I wonder if he’d consider opening up a retirement home or maybe condos for people in their golden years.

      On Mon, Oct 28, 2019 at 11:47 AM Class Warfare Blog wrote:

      >

      Liked by 1 person

      Comment by Steve Ruis — October 28, 2019 @ 11:51 am | Reply

      • The Golden Pasture, where the soup in bottomless.

        Liked by 1 person

        Comment by john zande — October 28, 2019 @ 11:54 am | Reply

        • I am close to ready for that … ah, soup … easy to chew!

          On Mon, Oct 28, 2019 at 11:54 AM Class Warfare Blog wrote:

          >

          Liked by 2 people

          Comment by Steve Ruis — October 28, 2019 @ 11:59 am | Reply

      • Old Yahweh is sustaining your consciousness this very moment. He interacts with the here and now every second of every day.
        You don’t actually believe you are perpetuating your own existence do you?

        Like

        Comment by John Branyan — October 28, 2019 @ 1:15 pm | Reply

        • The universe is bigger than the old Yahweh idea. Funny how you believe all these drip-fed advances are gods. What? He seems to be growing right along with us.

          Liked by 1 person

          Comment by jim- — October 28, 2019 @ 5:23 pm | Reply

          • Funny how you pretend to understand what I believe. Your comment is incoherent.

            Like

            Comment by John Branyan — October 28, 2019 @ 5:37 pm | Reply

            • Trouble connecting dots? How Christian…

              Liked by 1 person

              Comment by jim- — October 28, 2019 @ 5:39 pm | Reply

              • Zing!
                You were correct to block me. Every time you let me speak it goes badly for you. I suggest you stay in the shallow end.

                Like

                Comment by John Branyan — October 28, 2019 @ 5:44 pm | Reply

                • Sandcastles for John!! I never blocked you. It was the other way around. You have a great memory. Maybe that’s why you still pretend to believe.

                  Liked by 1 person

                  Comment by jim- — October 28, 2019 @ 5:52 pm | Reply

                  • Nope. You haven’t been blocked. I always appreciate Atheist comments because they demonstrate the futility of Atheism. Blocking is what guys like you do so I can’t ask tough questions.

                    Like

                    Comment by John Branyan — October 28, 2019 @ 6:16 pm | Reply

                    • Tough questions? Oh my! You have me in stitches again, John!! You really are a FUNNY guy!

                      Liked by 2 people

                      Comment by Nan — October 28, 2019 @ 6:25 pm

                    • You blocked me for the same reason. You’re unable to answer tough questions. Hilarious!

                      Like

                      Comment by John Branyan — October 28, 2019 @ 6:29 pm

                    • You lied about me blocking you, so why should anyone believe you?

                      Liked by 1 person

                      Comment by john zande — October 28, 2019 @ 6:35 pm

                    • I have never blocked one person. You’re a typical apologist liar

                      Like

                      Comment by jim- — October 28, 2019 @ 6:47 pm

                    • Jim, he has a long history of lying, especially about phantom blockings.

                      Like

                      Comment by john zande — October 28, 2019 @ 6:48 pm

                    • I am unable to comment on his posts. Period. I can’t even view his comment section

                      Like

                      Comment by jim- — October 28, 2019 @ 6:50 pm

                    • So he’s projecting.

                      Liked by 1 person

                      Comment by john zande — October 28, 2019 @ 6:52 pm

                    • Why on earth would you want to. I’ve never seen such petty drivel

                      Liked by 2 people

                      Comment by maryplumbago — October 28, 2019 @ 10:22 pm

                    • Haha. Good point.

                      Like

                      Comment by jim- — October 28, 2019 @ 10:35 pm

                    • Not sure where you’re looking.
                      https://johnbranyan.com/blog-archives/

                      My guess is that you’re fibbing about this. You pretend I’ve blocked you to avoid answering tough questions. Then along comes Mary with the standard, “It’s drivel anyway.” Classic!

                      FYI: It doesn’t look good for y’all to cower in fear of “drivel”.

                      Like

                      Comment by John Branyan — October 29, 2019 @ 7:33 am

                    • https://share.icloud.com/photos/0-ukRqzcDEE3ju39PEOLd_M1A here is a screen shot of what I see whenever I click you’re comments or try to reply. This has been happing ever since your run-in with Hate speech.

                      Like

                      Comment by jim- — October 29, 2019 @ 7:38 am

                    • So you see an error message and conclude that I’ve blocked you? That’s great! In this case, technical difficulties are your friend. Undeniable proof that I’m a liar. Congratulations!

                      Like

                      Comment by John Branyan — October 29, 2019 @ 8:10 am

                    • Yours is the only site I know that does that. I’m just lucky.

                      Like

                      Comment by jim- — October 29, 2019 @ 8:45 am

                    • Indeed. Luck explains it all.

                      Like

                      Comment by John Branyan — October 29, 2019 @ 8:47 am

                    • I’m pretty sure he has blocked the comments so he so Pink nor others cannot see his racism and hate speech. How’s that going for you Branysm, having the DOJ monitor your comments?

                      Liked by 1 person

                      Comment by jim- — October 28, 2019 @ 6:52 pm

                    • And you’re a typical, cry-baby atheist.

                      You might as well block me since you’ve no intention of answering any of my questions.

                      Like

                      Comment by John Branyan — October 28, 2019 @ 7:02 pm

                    • Your irrelevance is oozing. Go buff your trump stickers.

                      Like

                      Comment by jim- — October 28, 2019 @ 7:03 pm

                    • In the tradition of enlightenment we see the value of unbelief, then little by little the source reveals itself from within, that the universe is a complex living way, a happening where we live without belief, but in practice as a singularity.

                      Your irrelevance is oozing too.

                      Like

                      Comment by John Branyan — October 28, 2019 @ 7:11 pm

                    • I’m just sharing ideas John. My own. Your enlightenment is a subscription to some old bastards misinterpreted hypnogogia. The mere fact that you believe what everyone else believes is a sign you been hijacked.

                      Like

                      Comment by jim- — October 28, 2019 @ 7:13 pm

                    • LOL
                      You’re sharing word salad.

                      Which old bastard misinterpreted hypnogogia do I subscribe to?

                      Like

                      Comment by John Branyan — October 28, 2019 @ 7:18 pm

                    • All of your supposed “prophets” with their unanimously failed prophecies, starting with Abraham.

                      Like

                      Comment by jim- — October 28, 2019 @ 7:33 pm

                    • So you have criticism but provide no evidence. Prove me wrong or shut up.

                      Like

                      Comment by John Branyan — October 28, 2019 @ 7:37 pm

                    • Your behavior has proven your beliefs worthless for one. The historic outcomes of Christianity at the point of a sword and zealous tyrants, including parents and priests for another. Belief is actually the biggest hurdle facing mankind. Transcending belief mode, that waiting game for Jesus, will usher in what Christianity has promised and never delivered. Peace. Not even in its own ranks.
                      At that point global warming will accelerate due to the decrease in incessant hand waving

                      Like

                      Comment by jim- — October 28, 2019 @ 7:51 pm

                    • LOL
                      Conjecture is not evidence.

                      Like

                      Comment by John Branyan — October 28, 2019 @ 8:07 pm

                    • It’s history and currently on ongoing failure. Only belief could ignore that. It’s like the Catholics now, finding every excuse to defend that massive, corrupt organization. You fall into the category of this; it is easier to fool someone than to convince them they’ve been fooled.

                      Like

                      Comment by jim- — October 28, 2019 @ 8:13 pm

                    • Jim…this man is pitiful..so angry and filled with black resentment and hate. He seems an utterly miserable person. What a wasted life.

                      Just let him go…any rational person can see the truth of what he is…

                      Liked by 1 person

                      Comment by maryplumbago — October 30, 2019 @ 9:06 am

                    • Yes. Rational persons can see the truth of what I am. Maybe you will be one of those persons someday.

                      Like

                      Comment by John Branyan — October 30, 2019 @ 9:10 am

                    • Hey John … why don’t you tell us “the truth about what you are.” Maybe we’ve all been terribly mistaken. 😮

                      Liked by 1 person

                      Comment by Nan — October 30, 2019 @ 10:48 am

                    • Hey Nan…According to Mary, rational persons can see the truth of what I am. Don’t doubt your rationality! You’re much smarter than me.

                      Like

                      Comment by John Branyan — October 30, 2019 @ 12:46 pm

                    • So, you have criticism again but provide no evidence to refute a word I said. More apologetics 101. Prove me wrong, or shut up

                      Like

                      Comment by jim- — October 28, 2019 @ 7:25 pm

  4. Hello Steve. I never understood the idea of god being outside of our reality, our time and space? What is that, where is that, is it anything? Also if he is out side our reality how can he interact with our reality the way the believers claim he does? It seems a way to have it both ways for them. Hugs

    Like

    Comment by Scottie — October 28, 2019 @ 12:02 pm | Reply

    • Well, there is no license needed to make this stuff up. People are free to blurt out whatever comes to their mind. And I think this “beyond space and time” was a manifestation of a belief that there is a heaven. Like “god” there was debate about where this place was. And since we could not find it it must be somewhere else than in any easily accessible place. Jewish scripture and Christian scripture and related writings talk about heaven being “up” (higher than the moon, lower than the firmament or maybe higher or maybe …) Heaven ended up beyond space and time because getting there was a bitch (a number of folks claim to have made the trip, there and back). And, of course, God must be in Heaven (or have Platinum Card access, whatever). Ta da! God is beyond space and time but everywhere at all times, so … it is a mystery, my son!

      On Mon, Oct 28, 2019 at 12:02 PM Class Warfare Blog wrote:

      >

      Liked by 2 people

      Comment by Steve Ruis — October 28, 2019 @ 12:10 pm | Reply

      • Thanks Steve. The idea still is not something I can wrap my head around. Have you seen the movie R.I.P.D.? It had an interesting take on this whole heaven thing. Hugs
        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R.I.P.D.

        Like

        Comment by Scottie — October 28, 2019 @ 1:02 pm | Reply

      • You really do a horrible job of articulating Christian theology.
        But if it’s meaningful to you that’s good enough for me.

        Like

        Comment by John Branyan — October 28, 2019 @ 1:13 pm | Reply

    • God is “outside of our reality” in the same way that you are “outside the reality of the Oval Office”. Every painter is “outside the reality” of the painting. A painter can “interact with the reality” at will.

      Like

      Comment by John Branyan — October 28, 2019 @ 1:07 pm | Reply

      • Hello John. Sorry but no. Nice try. Words have meanings. Here is the meaning of reality.

        re·al·i·ty
        /rēˈalədē/
        Learn to pronounce
        noun
        noun: reality

        1.
        the world or the state of things as they actually exist, as opposed to an idealistic or notional idea of them.
        “he refuses to face reality”
        h
        Similar:
        the real world
        real life
        actuality
        truth
        physical existence
        corporeality
        substantiality
        materiality
        h
        Opposite:
        fantasy
        a thing that is actually experienced or seen, especially when this is grim or problematic.
        plural noun: realities
        “the harsh realities of life in a farming community”
        h
        Similar:
        fact
        actuality
        truth
        verity
        a thing that exists in fact, having previously only existed in one’s mind.
        “the paperless office may yet become a reality”
        the quality of being lifelike or resembling an original.
        “the reality of Marryat’s detail”
        h
        Similar:
        verisimilitude
        authenticity
        realism
        fidelity
        faithfulness
        h
        Opposite:
        idealism
        relating to reality TV.
        modifier noun: reality
        “a reality show”
        2.
        the state or quality of having existence or substance.
        “youth, when death has no reality”

        Your examples do not fit the definition. It doesn’t simply mean out side a room, it means outside our existence. Totally a different thing. Hugs

        Like

        Comment by Scottie — October 28, 2019 @ 1:15 pm | Reply

        • Very good.
          God exists outside our reality the way the author of a dictionary exists outside the book. It’s not a difficult concept. I appreciate your illustration.

          Like

          Comment by John Branyan — October 28, 2019 @ 1:18 pm | Reply

          • Hello John. Sorry you are wrong again. But thanks for trying to twist my words. Both of those are in our reality. What you are championing is something totally out side our reality that can somehow interact with our reality in a magical way. OK there are lots of movies about witches and wizards that do this, but in truth your proposal has shown no evidence of how such an out of reality being could be both separate yet joined to our reality. Hugs

            Like

            Comment by Scottie — October 28, 2019 @ 1:23 pm | Reply

            • Didn’t twist any words Scottie, but thanks for misrepresenting and misunderstanding my earnest attempt at dialogue.

              Keep having those big, big, big feelings!

              Like

              Comment by John Branyan — October 28, 2019 @ 1:27 pm | Reply

              • Hello John. Ah don’t go away mad, it isn’t your fault you can not square a circle. Either your god is in reality and can interact with it via miracles, or it is out side of reality in which case it has no ability to effect anything in our existing reality. But thanks for playing, I wish you the best. Hugs

                Liked by 1 person

                Comment by Scottie — October 28, 2019 @ 1:32 pm | Reply

                • Ah, I didn’t go away mad. It’s not my fault you can’t tell a circle from a square.

                  I explained how God interacts with reality in terms that a child can understand. I wish you the best as well.

                  Like

                  Comment by John Branyan — October 28, 2019 @ 2:09 pm | Reply

                  • Hello John. Ah yes, when you can not argue the facts, nor explain the mistakes, you go for a personal attack. I think they call that an ad hominem fallacy. Your reply adds so much to the conversation. Be well. Hugs

                    Like

                    Comment by Scottie — October 28, 2019 @ 2:42 pm | Reply

                    • Ah yes, when you fire off the first ad hominem and I reply in kind, you pretend I started it. Big, big, big feelings!

                      Children understand how God can exist outside of creation.

                      Like

                      Comment by John Branyan — October 28, 2019 @ 2:46 pm

                    • Children understand … Says it all.

                      Liked by 1 person

                      Comment by Nan — October 28, 2019 @ 2:48 pm

                    • Yes. Children understand. Grown atheists do not.
                      That says it all.

                      Keep laughing!

                      Like

                      Comment by John Branyan — October 28, 2019 @ 2:52 pm

                    • Keep laughing! Oh, I will! At you and your nonsensical comments. Like I said … one of these days the $$$ will come, John. Just keep practicing.

                      Liked by 1 person

                      Comment by Nan — October 28, 2019 @ 2:59 pm

                    • $$$ are already rolling in, Nan. Thanks!

                      Atheism lost this one but keep the faith! Maybe you’ll score a meaningless point next time.

                      Like

                      Comment by John Branyan — October 28, 2019 @ 3:07 pm

                    • Hello John. When you give

                      the author of a dictionary exists outside the book

                      as the explanation of a god outside of reality and I then explain that both author and book are in our reality, which is totally different than the claim of a god totally outside the reality which interacts with that reality, you response is not simply not valid. They are not equivalent. Your example is flawed. I am sorry you can not grasp that. I also do not care about your childish need for insults, I am not into that game. It seems a silly response to a conversation. At this point I do not see the need for us to take up anymore of Steve’s blog space to repeat the same words. Hugs

                      Liked by 1 person

                      Comment by Scottie — October 28, 2019 @ 2:54 pm

                    • Well if it seems silly to you then it must be silly! I will never bother you again.

                      Liked by 1 person

                      Comment by John Branyan — October 28, 2019 @ 3:01 pm

                    • They are not equivalent

                      Right, they are not equivalent… until the theist needs to jettison the “beyond space and time” excuse to have their god fellow do some meddling, before disappearing behind the hiddenness excuse of “beyond space and time”

                      Liked by 1 person

                      Comment by john zande — October 28, 2019 @ 3:28 pm

    • It’s just their mumbo jumbo

      Liked by 1 person

      Comment by maryplumbago — October 28, 2019 @ 10:23 pm | Reply

  5. “[God] endures always and is present everywhere,…”
    God(s) endure and exist everywhere there are humans. It is a mental illness humans acquired from the earliest ancestors who created the supernatural. The supernatural realm is but a delusional extension of imagination. We are all taught this trick by well meaning parents; that is where Santa Claus lives. Without the supernatural realm, gods have no place to live. GROG

    Liked by 3 people

    Comment by grogalot — October 28, 2019 @ 3:25 pm | Reply

  6. Hello Steve. Wow oh Wow! I would love to see a single religious topic subject debate between Jim and John, or Nan and John where John couldn’t just default into insults or CS behavior. One subject, no fudging. I bet we could sell tickets, not to mention side betting. I know who I would bet on for not only a win , but a total knock down of the subject and person. Ah a nice thought to head off to bed with. Nan, Jim, do it, set it up, you are going to be picking low hanging fruit. Hugs

    Like

    Comment by Scottie — October 28, 2019 @ 6:37 pm | Reply


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