Class Warfare Blog

May 10, 2019

You Need to Respect Our Beliefs!

Part of the War on Christianity™ (Fox News) is the much reviled and disdained severe atheistic/humanistic disrespect for the beliefs of Christians! This is abominable! We are told that we should “respect their beliefs.”

Uh, no, just … no.

I accept their beliefs. I even acknowledge them. But respect them, no. Respect is something that is earned. How is it that just because they believe something, it automatically has to be respected? Especially when it comes to batshit crazy notions like the fundamentalists have that the End Times™ are just around the corner (time wise). Really? The forces of good and evil are going to duke it out? On the plain of Armageddon in the Holy Land? Really?

Entities with supernatural powers are going to a place to meet up, a flat place where they can deploy their forces? This is about as realistic as having modern jet fighters having firefights while confined to the ground. (Okay, you can taxi around all you want, but you can’t take off; got it? Go get ’em, tiger!)

And on one side is a god who is “beyond space and time,” which means he cannot be found by his enemies, who can create whole galaxies with mere thoughts, and already knows the plans of all of his enemies, who he can unmake with a mere thought. Uh, who wants to be on this guy’s side? (Me, me, me, me . . .) How can such a battle take place, except in the vivid imagination of an iron age drug addict?

Respect that belief? No, ridicule it, maybe, but not respect it. And please do not think that these are ideas that have been set aside. There are fundamentalist groups currently acting on a political agenda toward Israel, based upon this very scenario. Some Jewish groups are complaining about the activities of some of these fundamentalist Protestant groups, so apparently they are being taken seriously.

Social tools are tools we all use to moderate bad behavior in society. If a member of a social community acts poorly, people talk to him about his behavior. If he persists, then ridicule and public shaming take place. If he still persists, shunning and banning take place. We have talked to theists about their beliefs, but they persist in trying to force those beliefs on the rest of us (We Are A Christian Nation, War on Christmas, War on Christianity, Dominionism, Special privileges for the religious written into law, etc.), so ridicule is next up. Ridicule is appropriate as it is a gentle form of persuasion that no one is immune from. If that doesn’t work, well the tools at hand provide many opportunities to ratchet up the pressure. In more advanced countries, religion is a private matter that doesn’t intrude into the public sphere, happiness results. This state is a worthwhile goal.

 

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46 Comments »

  1. U.S. evangelicals are a truly special kind of dumb, challenged only by ISIS.

    Liked by 1 person

    Comment by john zande — May 10, 2019 @ 1:09 pm | Reply

    • And close to the same level of dangerous.

      At this point I want to see the Second Coming of Jesus. I want him to go on the Fox News channel and tell us what he really thinks about his “followers.”

      On Fri, May 10, 2019 at 1:09 PM Class Warfare Blog wrote:

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      Liked by 2 people

      Comment by Steve Ruis — May 10, 2019 @ 1:11 pm | Reply

      • And close to the same level of dangerous

        Oh, they’re well on their way to getting women killed with these insane abortion laws.

        Liked by 1 person

        Comment by john zande — May 10, 2019 @ 1:14 pm | Reply

        • Evangelical support for Donald Trump may result in war with Iran, a recession over trade with China, etc.

          On Fri, May 10, 2019 at 1:14 PM Class Warfare Blog wrote:

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          Liked by 2 people

          Comment by Steve Ruis — May 10, 2019 @ 1:39 pm | Reply

  2. I suppose privacy where it pertains to religion is subjective.
    I used to live quite close to a mosque.
    But I take your point, Steve.
    Good post.

    Liked by 1 person

    Comment by Arkenaten — May 10, 2019 @ 2:46 pm | Reply

  3. We are told that we should “respect their beliefs.” — Well, I’ll tell you what, Mr./Ms. Believer. You respect my unbelief and we’ll be on level ground.

    Liked by 1 person

    Comment by Nan — May 10, 2019 @ 3:07 pm | Reply

    • Oooh, good point, Nan!!! I didn’t think of that. They approach us, when they do, from the perspective that we are wrong and how they could make us see that. We do not approach them, only responding when asked, then we tell them they are wrong! :o)

      Wouldn’t be nice if we lived in a place where religion were a private matter?

      On Fri, May 10, 2019 at 3:07 PM Class Warfare Blog wrote:

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      Liked by 1 person

      Comment by Steve Ruis — May 11, 2019 @ 7:58 am | Reply

  4. Steve,

    As a former worker in the Psych/A&D rehab field with my years of above-average education and clinical experience, I too can easily accept and acknowledge their beliefs, the Christian’s multiple beliefs. My own daughter and son have been primarily raised by their Fundamentalist, Evangelical, non-Denominational (and Prosperity Theology) mother and her ultra-Conservative family of missionaries & ministers/pastors and church staff — so like most moderate and liberal Americans, I have no real choice but to tolerate, understand, accept, and acknowledge their mythologies. :/

    However, should any of them — my daughter & son included — press me for a lengthy, civil, productive debate that SHOULD take place over many hours, several days(?), I am more than happy to extensively elaborate on my Humanist Freethinking (science-based and typically cumulative-based) ideals as well as dismantle their highly problematic (and often misguided or erroneous) belief that is in essence Pauline Christology, not “Christianity” per se.

    In more advanced countries, religion is a private matter that doesn’t intrude into the public sphere, happiness results. This state is a worthwhile goal.

    Hear hear!!! Worthwhile protecting, improving, peacefully, and if necessary… risking physical-medical harm defending it. How many of these ‘enemies’ to our Constitutional democracy and liberties can honestly say:

    I do not agree with what you have to say, but I’ll defend to the death your right to say it.

    …and truly mean it? Can they be counted on two hands?

    Liked by 2 people

    Comment by Professor Taboo — May 10, 2019 @ 4:50 pm | Reply

    • Hear, hear! Your story is sad as these “beliefs” separate and distort families away from a state of lovingkindness, that should be their bedrock.

      On Fri, May 10, 2019 at 4:50 PM Class Warfare Blog wrote:

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      Liked by 1 person

      Comment by Steve Ruis — May 11, 2019 @ 8:00 am | Reply

  5. I don’t speak for all theists. But I assure you I cannot care less about your respect. Feel free to disrespect, ridicule, mock, belittle, and comment on my batshit craziness for as long as your passion endures. Tell the folks at Fox News to knock it off. You can disrespect whoever you want!

    Like

    Comment by John Branyan — May 10, 2019 @ 8:18 pm | Reply

    • and comment on my batshit craziness for as long as your passion endures

      Let me fix that for you: “for as long as *I* publically promote regressive, violent, hateful, fundamentalist nonsense.”

      Liked by 2 people

      Comment by john zande — May 11, 2019 @ 6:28 am | Reply

      • Now, John, please don’t pick fights here. Granted that you have cause but not on this topic per se.

        On Sat, May 11, 2019 at 6:28 AM Class Warfare Blog wrote:

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        Liked by 1 person

        Comment by Steve Ruis — May 11, 2019 @ 8:10 am | Reply

    • Thanks, John … I feel empowered! I do think the “disrespect” being referred to is not real disrespect. Their pushback is against people not automatically honoring their beliefs which used to be automatically honored. Respectful people can continue to discuss things, even though they disagree, as you prove constantly. Respect doesn’t mean agreement, so I think there is some confusion or grasping at straw arguments in the whole subject.

      On Fri, May 10, 2019 at 8:18 PM Class Warfare Blog wrote:

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      Liked by 1 person

      Comment by Steve Ruis — May 11, 2019 @ 8:04 am | Reply

      • I agree with all of that!
        Fundamentalists don’t like to justify their beliefs. They just want conformity. As you said, disagreement constitutes disrespect. I’ve been blocked and unfriended by fundies of all stripes (believer and non-believer) because I don’t kowtow to the approved narrative. My shunning is frequently accompanied by a message to let me know that I am “not worth the time” required for conversation. That seems disrespectful but what do I know?

        Like

        Comment by John Branyan — May 11, 2019 @ 9:20 am | Reply

  6. Excellent points. Let me also add that all archaeological research shows that there is NO evidence for any of the important parts of the events written about in Genesis and Exodus that would have left archaeological evidence behind. It’s all made up bullshit, composed while the Jews/Hebrews/Israelites were actually in captivity in Babylon (which really DID happen.)
    And of course Christianity and Islam are based on the Pentateuch, which is mostly made up bullshit, and therefore so are they. And Mormonism is even more obviously bullshit — the Book of Mormon is full of references to animals, plants and technologies that Joseph Smith pretended existed in North America approximately 2000 years ago, and even Mormon experts say that’s all bulkshit too.

    Liked by 3 people

    Comment by gfbrandenburg — May 10, 2019 @ 10:22 pm | Reply

    • Yeah, it is fascinating that the Jews admit freely that the Pentateuch is “wisdom literature,” being fiction designed to teach “spiritual lessons.” Yet fundamentalists insist that *their *Bible is all true and historical and without error. What chutzpah! They are telling Jews how to interpret their Bible!

      On Fri, May 10, 2019 at 10:22 PM Class Warfare Blog wrote:

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      Liked by 1 person

      Comment by Steve Ruis — May 11, 2019 @ 8:06 am | Reply

  7. Respect and loyalty are among a select group of qualities that MUST be earned. I respect the rights of any and all to believe whatever they wish,as long as said belief does not mean harm to my family or me. If their belief will cause harm to me and mine I will start payback and they will not like it at all. Yes, I am anti-violence and since surviving the useless Vietnam war, my violence is confined to verbal violence. Physical threats to my family, even though I married into it (adopted if you wish) will result in the offenders understanding why I support the 2nd amendment to the Bill of Rights. Yep, I do own firearms and still can use them if needed. At my current state of health I have no fear of death at all, actually looking forward to it.

    Liked by 1 person

    Comment by Walter Kronkat — May 11, 2019 @ 1:13 am | Reply

    • Let’s start with the torches and pitchforks, okay? :o)

      The extremists who want no separation of church and state seem to have not noticed that that has been tried before, many times. When tried in Europe, they called it the Dark Ages.

      On Sat, May 11, 2019 at 1:13 AM Class Warfare Blog wrote:

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      Liked by 1 person

      Comment by Steve Ruis — May 11, 2019 @ 8:08 am | Reply

  8. Deeply held belief (stubbornness) is a cancer passed down from de-generations. It is the seedbed of all our divisions.

    Liked by 1 person

    Comment by jim- — May 11, 2019 @ 8:11 am | Reply

    • In other contexts it is called prejudice. For a long time, tradition preserved ways of doing things (tradition = the way we have always done things) that benefited subsequent generations. These have largely been replaced by different procedures but many of the traditions drag on. We have instead what is often referred to as common sense, which is actually a huge set of rules we have hammered out subliminally and mostly abide by. (Consider the procedure followed at walk-up ATM machines. It was created by people without a single meeting or rule being posted.) people who do not follow the rules are considered as people with no “common sense” or “idiots” depending upon the infractions. These rules vary from place to place because they are locally negotiated, no government involved. So, we give up a seat on the bus to an elderly lady or pregnant woman as a normal matter, no thought or reason is involved in the transaction.

      Rules that require extensive education need more careful consideration and unfortunately, these rules are often impressed upon young children before they have the metal abilities (or ability to hire a lawyer) to assess whether to accept those teachings or not.

      On Sat, May 11, 2019 at 8:11 AM Class Warfare Blog wrote:

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      Liked by 2 people

      Comment by Steve Ruis — May 11, 2019 @ 8:21 am | Reply

      • We haven’t evolved yet. This is like automated agriculture. Our food is now served on a plate with very little caloric exchange and we wonder how we got so fat. We need to change the core of beliefs that no longer serve us. We’re too quick to maintain tradition, but love The gadgets while hanging on to the past. They don’t mix well.

        Liked by 1 person

        Comment by jim- — May 11, 2019 @ 8:35 am | Reply

        • Right, you are! (When did I start talking like Yoda?)

          On Sat, May 11, 2019 at 8:35 AM Class Warfare Blog wrote:

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          Liked by 2 people

          Comment by Steve Ruis — May 11, 2019 @ 8:50 am | Reply

          • Yodaspeak is just English in Spanish arrangement. Now bilingual you are.

            Liked by 2 people

            Comment by jim- — May 11, 2019 @ 8:52 am | Reply

            • LOL! Or even German, to which English is more closely related. Brilliant your comment was.

              On Sat, May 11, 2019 at 8:52 AM Class Warfare Blog wrote:

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              Liked by 2 people

              Comment by Steve Ruis — May 11, 2019 @ 8:58 am | Reply

        • I meant to finish this up with religion too, is now served on a plate and we just take it and ingest it with no effort about it and we’re spiritually lazy in the churches.

          Liked by 1 person

          Comment by jim- — May 11, 2019 @ 9:09 am | Reply

  9. “…all archaeological research shows that there is NO evidence for any of the important parts of the events written about in Genesis and Exodus that would have left archaeological evidence behind. It’s all made up bullshit, composed while the Jews/Hebrews/Israelites were actually in captivity in Babylon (which really DID happen.)”
    Amazing! How can I verify this statement so I know it’s not made up bullshit?
    Wait…don’t tell me…Google. Perhaps you would be kind enough to give me the search phrase you used?

    Like

    Comment by John Branyan — May 11, 2019 @ 9:26 am | Reply

    • Actually, John, I have read numerous books on this topic and they all say the same thing. “Biblical archaeologists: descended upon the Holy Land starting the late 1800’s looking to confirm all of the early statements in the Bible. They found basically no evidence of the number fo Jews claimed to be living in Egypt, that they were slaves, that they left with the Egyptians in hot pursuit, or that they spend 40 years wandering in the Sinai desert. John Zande interviewed quite a number of Jewish scholars about this and they all confirmed that was the case. You could read about it on Zande’s blog, but I think you got banned there, no?

      Part of the problem is that there are so many bullshit books that have been written supporting positions that do not seem supportable that it confuses the issue. (Fake history? Oh, my!) Here is one example of books written under less than honest guises:

      https://valerietarico.com/2019/03/20/how-case-for-christ-author-lee-strobel-fabricated-his-best-selling-story-an-interview-with-religion-critic-david-fitzgerald/

      On Sat, May 11, 2019 at 9:26 AM Class Warfare Blog wrote:

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      Liked by 1 person

      Comment by Steve Ruis — May 11, 2019 @ 10:23 am | Reply

      • I’ve read numerous books on the topic as well. One of those books was co-authored by one of Zande’s favorite archeologists (William Dever). The Exodus saga is still a lively debate among archeologists and scholars. That’s because the history is still uncertain.

        I agree there is a lot of bullshit. I repeatedly asked Zande to give me a list of those scholars he interviewed. You might do the same sometime. I’d be curious to know if you’re efforts bear fruit where mine did not. How do you determine who is a trustworthy source of information? For example, how do you know Valerie Tarico and David Fitzgerald are telling the truth about Lee Strobel?

        Like

        Comment by John Branyan — May 11, 2019 @ 10:59 am | Reply

        • I don’t know about David Fitzgerald but I have had more than a few interactions with Valerie Tarico and find her credible. I have been writing quite a bit about the social controls that are woven into societies. That we never know for sure whether or not someone is lying (as intent factors in, as opposed to just being mistaken) we have various ways of dealing with that. This is why if someone tells lies about any of us our feelings are hurt. Our reputation is an important part of our public personas.

          I am currently reading a fascinating book about morals (The Moral Animal by Robert Wright) and another on common sense (Everything Is Obvious by Duncan J. Watts) and both make evident many of these controls and how and why they exist.

          As to the historical veracity of the Bible, off the top of my head I suggest almost any of the books by Richard Carrier (“Proving History” comes foremost to mind). In Carrier’s book he addresses how we can evaluate historical claims (as best we can, of course).

          On Sat, May 11, 2019 at 10:59 AM Class Warfare Blog wrote:

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          Liked by 1 person

          Comment by Steve Ruis — May 11, 2019 @ 11:25 am | Reply

          • Richard Carrier is an Atheist, right? Seems like there could be some bias on the subject of Biblical veracity.

            Like

            Comment by John Branyan — May 11, 2019 @ 11:55 am | Reply

            • Richard Carrier is an atheist. If you throw out what he has written because of that, do you also throw out all of the things theists have written for the same reason: bias? In his works he makes arguments, states references, and exposes himself to criticism. You are free to read it all. Try Bart Ehrman instead.

              On Sat, May 11, 2019 at 11:55 AM Class Warfare Blog wrote:

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              Like

              Comment by Steve Ruis — May 11, 2019 @ 12:34 pm | Reply

              • Carrier is a proponent of Jesus as a fictional character I think. It’s hard for me to take that scholarship seriously. Ehrman is good. He’s also an Atheist but he is fair in his historical treatments.

                Like

                Comment by John Branyan — May 11, 2019 @ 12:40 pm | Reply

        • I repeatedly asked Zande to give me a list of those scholars he interviewed.

          Have you? Where and when, and do be specific. I suspect you’re lying because I have no problem at all giving the names. Most are right there in the various articles I’ve written on the subject.

          The people I contacted were a collection of Jewish rabbi’s (about 50 in total from every Jewish movement, including orthodox), and leading Israeli archaeologists at both Tel Aviv Uni and The Hebrew University of Jerusalem , including Dr. Erez Ben-Yosef, Rafi Greenberg, Arlette David, Dr. Alexander Fantalkin, Yuval Goren, Ran Barkai, Oded Lipschits, and Anna Belfer-Cohen.

          Liked by 1 person

          Comment by john zande — May 11, 2019 @ 11:34 am | Reply

          • John Z,

            That is a terribly SHORT list of Jewish scholars. 😉 And then the list of independent scholars, i.e. not affiliated in anyway with the Christian church/faith or Jewish religion, is perhaps twice as long.

            Like

            Comment by Professor Taboo — May 11, 2019 @ 12:07 pm | Reply

            • Well, I tackled it on two fronts: the rabbis and the archaeologists. Tel Aviv is the more secular department, Hebrew Uni more conservative. While not disagreeing with the consensus position (as best laid out by Ze’ev Herzog), the latter made greater efforts to frame the Pentateuch as wisdom tradition, which is fine.

              Liked by 1 person

              Comment by john zande — May 11, 2019 @ 12:15 pm | Reply

              • Completely agree John. But the very (vague?) wider point I was making, in far too little words 😉 , is that hardcore Xian Fundamentalists/Evangelicals are way too scared of what they’ll find if they take two steps away from the overused Roman Catholic Apostolic-Patristic sources and no more than Flavius Josephus or Suetonius and Pliny the Younger — all 3 of these are ridiculously weak non-Xian support — they think they’ll catch on fire or melt if they examine equitably all the INDEPENDENT sources against Christianity’s validity.

                Tis tis, we can lead them to water, but…

                Liked by 1 person

                Comment by Professor Taboo — May 11, 2019 @ 12:38 pm | Reply

                • Well, learning that Jesus didn’t even know basic regional history is a tad awkward…

                  Liked by 1 person

                  Comment by john zande — May 11, 2019 @ 12:41 pm | Reply

                  • Jesus at one point (in Matthew?) got the name of a High Priest wrong. So now we know the Bible is not inerrant, because, of course, Jesus couldn’t have made a mistake like that.

                    On Sat, May 11, 2019 at 12:41 PM Class Warfare Blog wrote:

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                    Liked by 2 people

                    Comment by Steve Ruis — May 11, 2019 @ 12:44 pm | Reply

                • in far too little words — You? Where??!? 😈

                  Liked by 1 person

                  Comment by Nan — May 11, 2019 @ 1:31 pm | Reply

      • I haven’t banned Branyan.

        Like

        Comment by john zande — May 11, 2019 @ 11:36 am | Reply

        • Really, then you and I are the only ones? :o)

          On Sat, May 11, 2019 at 11:36 AM Class Warfare Blog wrote:

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          Liked by 3 people

          Comment by Steve Ruis — May 11, 2019 @ 11:38 am | Reply

          • I’d never ban him. He’s a brilliant example of why Evangelical Christianity is collapsing. Hell, I’d give him a microphone if I could.

            Liked by 1 person

            Comment by john zande — May 11, 2019 @ 11:40 am | Reply

            • Then I wonder why he couldn’t just go on your site and search for the info he said he wanted. There was no need you you to “make a list” or anything else. He doesn’t seem lazy … but then. maybe it’s a ploy.

              On Sat, May 11, 2019 at 11:40 AM Class Warfare Blog wrote:

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              Like

              Comment by Steve Ruis — May 11, 2019 @ 11:55 am | Reply

              • and this was from 2013, so even I’m having trouble remembering names. I think I’ve had 3 (or is it 4?) computers since then.

                But anyway, you’re right. I subscribe to JSTOR and the consensus position from the odd article I read here and there has not changed.

                Liked by 1 person

                Comment by john zande — May 11, 2019 @ 12:01 pm | Reply

      • Excellent link to Dr. Valerie Tarico’s blog and her interview with David Fitzgerald — thank you Sir! Over the last 2 decades I have developed a very simple, appropriate equation — hope the HTML coding is correct — for “Faith-believers” and their mythology and legends:

        F = L + T (g + c)&sup10; where…

        F is Faith, L is Lazy, T is Terrified, g is gullible, and c is codependent. 😉

        Liked by 1 person

        Comment by Professor Taboo — May 11, 2019 @ 12:04 pm | Reply


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