Class Warfare Blog

November 2, 2018

#4 of the 10 Reasons to Believe God Exists

A few days back I covered #1 on this list, so if you need to see where this list was posted and by whom, please consult that post. Here is #4!

  1. Necessary Being (Ontological Argument). In the end, one only has two options. Either an eternal nothingness (meaning again, “no-thing,” not even quantum particles) brought forth something from absolute nothingness, or an eternal Being brought everything that exists into being. The latter makes far more sense and actually adheres more to the scientific method than the former.

This argument is just utter nonsense. There are almost no occasions in which there are just two possibilities, for one. There is even an old Jewish saying (or so I was told) which states: “Whenever presented with a choice of two options, always take the third.” This was presented to me with the story of an elderly woman shopping for vegetables. She asks the greengrocer “How much are the tomatoes?” He replies “Two for 79 cents.” She asks “How much for just one?” He replies “40 cents.” She says “I’ll take the other one.”

To show the utter vacuity of this argument, allow me to rephrase it slightly:

  1. Unnecessary Being (Ontological Argument). In the end, one only has two options. Either an eternal nothingness (meaning again, “no-thing,” not even quantum particles) brought forth something from absolute nothingness, or an eternal Being brought everything that exists into being. The former makes far more sense and actually adheres more to the scientific method than the latter.

Ta da. Just changes two words and now it makes far more sense.

How is the formulation of an utterly fantastic and totally unique magical entity better than “we do not know,” because in truth we do not yet know how the universe came into being? From that point of beginning onward, the universe seems to be self-organizing along the lines of a small set of simple rules, thus requiring no angels or other imaginary beings keeping it going, which was part of the total scheme along with creation by a god. Most of those original claims (pillars of the earth, animating angels, heavenly spheres, etc.) have been abandoned as science has whittled away the basis for believe such things to exist. We are down to the final surly knot that is quite resistant to whittling but will succumb eventually and then we will be free of gods and superstition, if we so choose.

 

28 Comments »

  1. 1. It is possible that a maximally wicked being exists.
    2. If it is possible that a maximally wicked being exists, then a maximally wicked being exists in some possible world.
    3. If a maximally wicked being exists in some possible world, then it exists in every possible world.
    4. If a maximally wicked being exists in every possible world, then it exists in the actual world.
    5. Therefore, a maximally wicked being exists in the actual world.
    6. Therefore, a maximally wicked being exists.
    7. Therefore, the Omnimalevolent Creator exists.

    Et Voila!

    Liked by 5 people

    Comment by john zande — November 2, 2018 @ 9:21 am | Reply

    • See, it is all very logical. I ran across a comment made by Bertrand Russell (about Thomas Aquinas) which seems to be applicable to Branyan:

      “He does not, like the Platonic Socrates, set out to follow wherever the argument may lead. He is not engaged in an inquiry, the result of which it is impossible to know in advance. Before he begins to philosophize, he already knows the truth; it is declared in the Catholic faith. If he can find apparently rational arguments for some parts of the faith, so much the better; if he cannot, he need only fall back on revelation. The finding of arguments for a conclusion given in advance is not philosophy, but special pleading.”

      Aquinas almost invented the practice of apologetics and John Branyan is one of his successors. Oh, how the mighty have fallen!

      On Fri, Nov 2, 2018 at 9:21 AM Class Warfare Blog wrote:

      >

      Liked by 6 people

      Comment by Steve Ruis — November 2, 2018 @ 9:29 am | Reply

      • Special pleading” hahaha, I love it! In cases of “special pleading” I equate to a little kid banging a cymbal for several hours straight. 😉 That is an excellent comment-reply and summation of Aquinas. Thank you for the huge grin Sir! 😁

        Liked by 1 person

        Comment by Professor Taboo — November 2, 2018 @ 5:56 pm | Reply

  2. I had a Prof in college that used that line. Any time your given two choices, they’re usually both wrong. Black or white, left or right, Catholic or Protestant. We are naturally forced to choosing sides but there is always a better way. I’ve really enjoyed your little series here Steve. Nice work.

    Liked by 3 people

    Comment by jim- — November 2, 2018 @ 9:36 am | Reply

    • Thank you! As I often say, praise from the praiseworthy is praise indeed!

      On Fri, Nov 2, 2018 at 9:36 AM Class Warfare Blog wrote:

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      Liked by 2 people

      Comment by Steve Ruis — November 2, 2018 @ 9:50 am | Reply

    • That is why I always drive down the middle of the highway.

      Like

      Comment by OG — November 2, 2018 @ 8:56 pm | Reply

      • Aah, that was you!! The guy with the foam finger in the window?

        Like

        Comment by jim- — November 2, 2018 @ 8:58 pm | Reply

  3. This argument relies on the huge assumption that there was ever “nothing”. Maybe there wasn’t ever “nothing”, maybe there was always “something”, just a different something than we have now. We’ve never established there was “nothing”, we only have a big “we don’t know” right now. Another failed attempt to argue god into existence. A follower of a real god should be able to do better.

    Liked by 4 people

    Comment by Ubi Dubium — November 2, 2018 @ 10:07 am | Reply

    • One of my complaints is that these people claim to have had direct communication with their gods. So, why can’t they get their story straight? Why can’t they find the archaeological evidence to prove their points (can’t their god just tell them where it is)? Why can’t their god supply them with arguments that are not flawed? Why all of this flailing around trying to come up with a decent argument?

      On Fri, Nov 2, 2018 at 10:07 AM Class Warfare Blog wrote:

      >

      Liked by 4 people

      Comment by Steve Ruis — November 2, 2018 @ 11:28 am | Reply

      • This talking to doG, well consider this bit. If you “talk to doG”, we call that prayer. OK, so far? When doG talks to you, we call that mental illness, usually schizophrenia.
        Just something to ponder, or not. Your life, your choice.

        Liked by 1 person

        Comment by Walter Kronkat — November 2, 2018 @ 5:30 pm | Reply

      • Indeed Steve, and why, why, WHY all His hiding about, never coming right out immediately to SHOW us decrepit, lowly, FALLEN species He Himself created (LOL!), that He means business!!!! Why all the mystery and waiting for how many millenia now? Geeeezzzz, is this dude gun-shy or what!? 😉

        Liked by 1 person

        Comment by Professor Taboo — November 2, 2018 @ 6:00 pm | Reply

    • @Ubi

      LOVE this — A follower of a real god should be able to do better. ❤ ❤

      Liked by 3 people

      Comment by Nan — November 2, 2018 @ 12:18 pm | Reply

  4. In the end, one only has two options.

    HAH!!! I stopped right there! That bogus claim and propaganda is so blatantly false it makes the Top 10 of Trumpisms. 🤣 When a con man or woman says that to me I literally begin laughing at them.

    Can’t wait for #5 Steve.

    Liked by 3 people

    Comment by Professor Taboo — November 2, 2018 @ 11:22 am | Reply

    • I am only part way through your referred Wilson article and it is wonderfully written, cogent, and to the point. No wonder the believers can’t follow it!

      On Fri, Nov 2, 2018 at 11:22 AM Class Warfare Blog wrote:

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      Liked by 1 person

      Comment by Steve Ruis — November 2, 2018 @ 11:29 am | Reply

      • Hahaha! I’ve shared it with Pastrami Mel, ColoringSprinkles, IB, SoM (when he was still around), and I believe also with BrainYawn (that was a waste of a good article! LOL) and you are right on the money Steve. If a scholarly article doesn’t start with traditional Greco-Roman (Hellenistic) salutations like…

        “To such and such, Servants of Christ Jesus, to all the Saints in (whatever town)…” or…

        “Grace and peace to you from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ…”

        …then those readers(?) with 3D one-color-prism glasses on won’t get past the first 2-3 sentences. LOL Or their comprehension of something like that article is so bad it compares to a 5th-grade level. Perhaps that indicates extreme bias or the inability to suspend (even temporarily) their hyper-premature prejudices. Maybe? I try to give weirdos the benefit of the doubt. 😉

        Glad you are enjoying the immense info E.O. Wilson provides from his lifetime career and expertise on the subject. He is one of my favorites!

        Liked by 2 people

        Comment by Professor Taboo — November 2, 2018 @ 11:42 am | Reply

  5. If you are upset about the claim that there are only two possible options, you should cite a third option. The insufficiency of “a or b” can only be demonstrated when we consider “c”.

    Either God exists or He doesn’t. There is no third option.

    Like

    Comment by John Branyan — November 2, 2018 @ 11:39 am | Reply

    • Oh, for Pete’s sake (that’s Saint Peter if you were wondering how much your religion has penetrated our culture), how about a god created the universe and then died like a spawning salmon. How about the universe was created by a powerful alien, like the character Q in STNG, and then got bored and abandoned the project. How about a baby god was given a Universe Creation Kit as a present and all he did was press the “Start” button? Have you no imagination or has your religion suck all of the air out of that facility?

      On Fri, Nov 2, 2018 at 11:39 AM Class Warfare Blog wrote:

      >

      Liked by 3 people

      Comment by Steve Ruis — November 2, 2018 @ 11:46 am | Reply

      • So apparently you don’t think the universe was created by nothing.

        Like

        Comment by John Branyan — November 2, 2018 @ 11:56 am | Reply

        • No, I don’t believe the universe was created by anything.

          On Fri, Nov 2, 2018 at 11:56 AM Class Warfare Blog wrote:

          >

          Like

          Comment by Steve Ruis — November 2, 2018 @ 12:09 pm | Reply

      • No, you are close but no cigar for Steve today. See, way, way back the great Cosmic Aardvark sneezed and one of the droplets from said sneeze, well that was the big bang. Yeah, that droplet just kept expanding until, well, get away from any city lights, not easy in ‘Merikkka today, then look up at the dark night sky, hope it is a clear night, no clouds. Then you see the results of that sneeze. I’d worship the great Cosmic Aardvark, but he told one of the cats who shared my home in SoCal about 23 years ago that the great Cosmic Aardvark didn’t feel like being a thing of worship, just tell him/her (the gender of this being wasn’t told to the cat) where the next ant hill was. Sneezing makes the great Cosmic Aardvark very hungry.

        Liked by 1 person

        Comment by Walter Kronkat — November 2, 2018 @ 5:38 pm | Reply

  6. Delivered by Amazon? Consider one such conjecture. Our universe was created from a leak from another universe through which all of this stuff poured (the original mass energy), kind of like a zit getting popped. This has been going on forever, new universes being created through leaks from previous ones.

    Honestly, no one knows why this universe began. Why are you so sure you do know and how do you know that?

    Liked by 2 people

    Comment by Steve Ruis — November 2, 2018 @ 2:28 pm | Reply

    • Because! 🎵🎼 🎵The bible tells me so …🎵🎼🎵

      Liked by 2 people

      Comment by Nan — November 2, 2018 @ 2:35 pm | Reply

    • I didn’t claim to know for sure how the universe came to exist. All I said was that there is either is a necessary being or there is not. Those are the only two options.

      Universes created from previously existing universe is nothing but an infinite regression. There must be a beginning Universe that gets everything started.

      Like

      Comment by John Branyan — November 2, 2018 @ 4:48 pm | Reply

      • Why? Who says there has to be a beginning? Do you have any EVIDENCE that proves the universe hasn’t always existed?

        Liked by 2 people

        Comment by Nan — November 2, 2018 @ 4:53 pm | Reply

  7. I know what you have been doing here Steve, or should I say Mr. President? You are explaining the top ten that Curmudgeon posted not too long back. You are taking each point and giving an in depth post on each in turn. Sneaky, but very good.
    Oh, I want to add one that I don’t think was part of that top ten. We all have had some clown, they never are funny, tell us we need to “get right with doG” before we meet our maker. Meet my maker? Um, I was not a biology major, chemistry until the Marines got me, then a machinist, but I know I had 2, yep two, makers. A Dad and a mother. Meet them? Hell, I lived in their house for 19 bloody years!
    As to where I’ll go when I die, well, where ever it may or may not be, I’m certain it will be a surprise. Nobody ever really has been dead then come back to life. Near death experiences are just that NEAR death experiences. Sorry to ramble on so long, but I just needed to get that out this eveneing.

    Liked by 1 person

    Comment by Walter Kronkat — November 2, 2018 @ 5:45 pm | Reply

  8. The second explanation isn’t an explanation. It just pushes the question one step back — OK, what explains the existence of the “eternal being”?

    Liked by 1 person

    Comment by Infidel753 — November 3, 2018 @ 7:39 am | Reply


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